Very good. Please proceed.

Your Honour, before I continue with my questions there are two spelling errors that were made yesterday. The first is for Giema. The correct spelling for Giema is N-G-E-I-M-A. Yesterday I spelt it incorrectly. The correct spelling for Bakkar is B-A-K-K-A-R.

Your Honour, there is another town which I noticed, I think it's called Gofor and that in the spelling given to us in the documents by the Prosecution starts with the letter N, N-G. Again, as you are aware, I am only raising these as a matter of consistency. It's not of regret import to us, but I thought it appropriate to mention it.

Well, there are sometimes names that are very close to each other but different places, so it's wise to make sure we all are talking about the same place. Ms Baly, would you be able to check those particular names.

Mr Santora has checked that name and the spelling is without an N.

I see.

I am content either way. It is just we have a document from the Prosecution where it is spelt with an N so I thought it appropriate to mention.

I appreciate the point. As I said already sometimes the names are very close. Ms Baly, we have noted those changes. Please proceed.

Mr Kanneh, good morning.

Good morning, sir.

Yesterday when we finished I was asking you questions about the meeting that you said took place on the road between the Waterworks and Buedu. Before I continue with questioning you about the meeting I just want to return briefly to some other areas of your evidence yesterday. Firstly, you mentioned a person by the name of CO Lion yesterday. My question is do you know where CO Lion was from?

Yes.

Where?

Liberia.

And how do you know that?

Well, I knew he was a Liberian because he spoke the Liberian language.

Which Liberian language are you referring to?

Well, he was also a Mano.

And what was the language that he spoke?

He used to speak English and Mano.

Was there anything distinctive about the English he spoke?

It was Liberian English. He spoke Liberian English.

Yesterday you gave some evidence about a time when you were in Kenema Town at the same time as Sam Bockarie was at Kenema Town. Do you remember giving that evidence?

Yes.

You spoke about a mission that you accomplished when you were in Kenema Town and I asked you this question, "Apart from the mission that you have told us about, did you undertake any other activities when you were in Kenema Town?" You gave this answer, "Well I did not do any other thing personally, but some other things happened. Other things happened." What other things were you referring to when you gave that answer?

Well, whilst we were in Kenema there was a time that Mr Sam Bockarie arrested three politicians. He arrested them and he accused them of collaborating with the enemies, that is the Kamajors, so they brought them to the secretariat and they were tortured.

Who were these three politicians?

Well one was Dr Momoh, two was Mr Ibrahim Gbacka and the third was BS Massaquoi.

Dr Momoh?

Yes.

Had you met Dr Momoh?

Yes.

What was his position?

Well, I knew Dr Momoh personally to be a medical doctor.

Did you know why Sam Bockarie arrested him?

Well he accused them of supporting the Kamajors, that they did not want to support the AFRC, and so that was the reason why he arrested them.

And just for the spelling for Gbacka it is G-B-A-C-K-A:

Did you know this person, Gbacka?

Yes, yes.

And what position, if any, did he hold?

Well, he was a businessman. He was doing business.

What kind of business?

He sells motor spare parts and at the same time he was doing mining.

What was the reason that he was arrested?

He said he also connived and that they were the ones who were helping the Kamajors. They sent to the Kamajors in the bush.

Who was the person who said that this man had connived?

Mosquito.

And the person, BS Massaquoi, what was his position?

Well, at that time he was the city council chairman.

Why was he arrested?

Well he was also arrested for the same crime, when he said they were not supporting the ruling government that was in charge, he said they were supporting the CDF, that is the Kamajors. So, that was the crime and so they were all arrested for that similar crime.

You said they were tortured. How do you know they were tortured?

Well, at a point in time after torturing them we came to the secretariat and they were jailed. I came myself and my colleague Manowai. We came to greet them. We realised that they had been seriously beaten up and they had the marks all over their body and we went to visit them because they were our relations.

What do you mean by they were your relations?

Well we all hail from the same region; that is the eastern region. They came from that area and I also came from that area, so that is the relationship between us. So, we are family members because we all hail from the same place.

Did you see their bodies yourself?

Yes.

Did you speak to them?

Yes, I spoke to Mr Gbacka.

And what did Mr Gbacka say?

He explained that Sam Bockarie had arrested them, that they were conniving with the CDF and so that was the reason why they were there and that they had undergone serious torture.

What happened to these three men?

Well the two amongst them, Mr Gbacka and Doctor, the way they beat them up was very serious and so we spoke to Mr Bockarie for them to be allowed to be taken to the hospital.

Were they taken to the hospital?

Yes, yes.

And what happened to them eventually, do you know?

Well as the intervention was approaching we noticed that Mr Bockarie intended to kill them, so we also put strategies in place so that they will be taken out of the hospital for them to be able to escape.

And why did you notice, or how did you notice, that Mr Bockarie intended to kill them?

Well, we were always in company with him and he always grumbled and that he said if situations went out of control they will not be spared.

Were they taken out of the hospital?

Yes, they hid overnight.

And what happened to them after the - on the next day?

Well when they escaped the information reached him, people brought the information to him, and so he had to place the other man under tight custody and that is BS Massaquoi.

And what do you mean by "tight custody"?

Well like initially they used to allow them come to the sitting room and spend time, but when that happened they never used to allow him again to do that. Even to serve him food, or to allow him to go to the toilet, sometimes somebody was behind him.

What happened to BS Massaquoi?

Well, at a point in time he was loaded into a vehicle and he said he was going to kill him. He was going to execute him. So, he moved with him to reservation and so all of us followed him.

Who said he was going to execute him?

Mosquito, Sam Bockarie.

Where did you follow him to?

Well the place where he was taking him to, that is going towards reservation.

Where did you end up?

Well, we went as far as midway the road and then he took him out of the vehicle and then shot him.

Who took him out of the vehicle?

The securities who were with him.

With who?

With Sam Bockarie.

And just so it is clear, who was shot?

BS Massaquoi.

What happened to him after he was shot?

Well, he struggled a lot and later died.

You had referred earlier in your evidence to a colleague who had gone to see these men - who had gone with you to see these men. The spelling for that is M-A-N-O-W-A-I. Now, Mr Kanneh, can I return now to this meeting that you were telling us about yesterday?

Ms Baly, I hate to interrupt, but could we have some indication of where this killing happened and some time frame please?

Your Honour, yes:

You had said that this incident happened when you were in Kenema Town. Is that correct?

Yes.

And yesterday you told us that you were in Kenema Town until the intervention. Is that correct?

Yes, sir.

Are you able to say when this killing of BS Massaquoi took place?

That was the day that the AFRC finally pulled out of the city. That was when the intervention entered the city.

On the same day?

That same day. That same day.

And whereabouts did this killing take place?

It was on the road going towards reservation.

What was the name of the road, if you know?

That was the name we had for it. That was the way we called it, the road leading to reservation.

And the reservation, where was that?

Well, it is in Kenema. It is an area in Kenema Town.

Ms Baly, did the witness say it was Bockarie who shot the victim?

No, securities.

Bockarie's securities?

Yes.

Thank you.

Why did you call this place a reservation?

Well, they are government quarters. Government quarters are concentrated in that area and so that is why they called the place that name. It is a government area.

After BS Massaquoi died, what did you do?

Well we all of us returned, those of us who were there, and when he moved we followed him, only that we were all not happy. Those of us who joined him and went, we were not happy over that idea.

Who are you referring to that you followed?

I was there. I was there myself. Eddie Kanneh was there.

You said that "... those of us who were there, and when he moved we followed him, only that we were all not happy. Those of us who joined him and went, we were not happy over that idea". Who is the "him" that you were referring to?

Sam Bockarie.

And where did you follow Sam Bockarie to?

We all came back and went to the brigade.

Did you discuss this killing with Sam Bockarie?

No, I was unable to discuss with him because when the first one happened I found it difficult with him. He was about to give me problems, so when this one happened at that time I did not say anything to him.

What do you mean by when the first one happened, what first one?

Well, he killed another man even before this incident, in the same Kenema.

Who was that man?

He was called Mohamed Fitiae.

Who was Mohamed Fitiae?

He was a businessman.

And why was he killed, if you know?

Well, that day, that particular day we were in Kenema Kamajors attacked us and when we were attacked we pushed them out and some people started looting. They started breaking into people's shops and houses. After that soldiers went and commandeered his vehicle, because when I went there later I investigated, and they wanted to use that vehicle to go and loot a Mandingo man's place. So because he never wanted to lose his vehicle he asked them so that he himself will drive his vehicle to go with them. So when they went with this man he loaded them into his vehicle, they drove him and they went.

But when the Pa brought the complaint to Sam Bockarie he actually did not know the particular people who did the act. He was the only person he knew, so he reported him that they were the ones who went and looted his place. So when he asked us to put looting under control and he passed the order to myself and Manowai we were now passing round and then we went and met this thing had happened and the men explained to us. So by the time I came back to explain to him that so and so things happened, he said it was a lie. He said the Pa said that it was that man who looted his place. So that was what happened and at that time I wanted to defend the man, but I had some misunderstandings with him so he went angry with him so I was also afraid.

What happened to this man eventually?

Ms Baly, we have had a lot of "him"s and "he"s and really before you go further we must clarify this.

In your answer just a moment ago, the long answer that you gave, you said that you were in Kenema Town and that Kamajors attacked and you pushed them out and some people started looting. You then said they started breaking into people's shops and houses and that soldiers went and commandeered his vehicle. Whose vehicle was commandeered?

Mohamed Fitiae.

Then you said you went there later and you investigated. You wanted to see the vehicle to go and loot a Mandingo man's place and you said, "Because he never wanted to lose his vehicle." Again whose vehicle are you referring to there?

Mohamed Fitiae.

You then said, "When they went with this man he loaded them into his vehicle." Who loaded them into whose vehicle?

The items that they had looted were the items they loaded into Mohamed Fitiae's vehicle.

Who loaded the items?

The soldiers.

And then you said, "The Pa brought the complaint to Sam Bockarie." Who is the Pa that you are referring to?

The Mandingo man who they went and looted his place.

Then you said, "Sam Bockarie, he actually did not know the particular people who did the act. He was the only person he knew so he reported him." Who reported who?

The Mandingo man came and reported that Mohamed Fitiae took soldiers with him and they went and looted his place.

And you then said, "So when he asked us to put looting under control and he passed the order." Who was it that asked you to put looting under control and passed the order?

Sam Bockarie passed the order that we should ensure that we put it under control.

"We were now passing round and then we went and met this thing had happened, explained to him that so and so things happened." What did you mean by, "So by the time I came back to explain to him that so and so things happened." What did you mean by that?

Well, after we went and investigated and when we got the whole story, when we came I tried to explain things to him for him not to kill the man.

To who?

Sam Bockarie. He did not listen at all. He said it was a lie. He said it was that man who took people with him to go and loot. He was the man that the person knew, so he said he was going to kill him and when I tried to talk to him, to plead with him, he in fact was angry with me.

Just so it's clear, the person that was angry with you was who?

Mr Bockarie, Mosquito.

Did you see the killing of this person?

Yes.

How was he killed?

Well, he shot him with his pistol.

Who is the him?

Sam Bockarie.

Who is the deceased?

Who was the person he shot? Who is the person he shot?

The person who used his vehicle to go with the soldiers, that is Mohamed Fitiae, he was the one who was shot.

Just for the spelling of Fitiae, F-I-T-I-A-E.

Mr Witness, we are having a bit of trouble the way you describe your evidence. You keep referring to "he" and "him" and "they" and so on. We were not there, but you were. Can you please use names when you are referring to these people. You think you can do that, please?

Yes.

When you are describing something try and use the names, or describe the people that you are referring to rather than using the phrases "he", "them", "she" and so on.

Yes, yes.

Now you told us about the killing of this man Fitiae after I had asked you why you did not discuss the killing of BS Massaquoi with Sam Bockarie. You said in effect that the reason you hadn't discussed the killing of BS Massaquoi with Sam Bockarie was because of the first killing. Is that so?

Yes.

Can we return now, please, to the meeting that you were telling the Court about yesterday, the long eight hour meeting that took place on the road between the Waterworks and Buedu. Can I just ask you what the name of the road between the Waterworks and Buedu is? What's the name of the road?

Well, it was Foya Road.

One of the things you said yesterday when you were discussing one of the topics, namely the command structure that had been discussed at the meeting - you said this:

"Well, he made it clear to all the AFRC men who were present that AFRC was no longer in power and that where we had now come it was called the jungle and that everybody was supposed to be under the RUF command and that the RUF - anywhere the RUF was serving as a commander the AFRC should serve as deputy."

I asked you was that something that was accepted at the meeting and you said:

"Yes, everyone accepted up to the leader, the leader for the AFRC, all of them accepted, all of us, and those of us who were there besides SAJ Musa."

I asked you, "Was SAJ Musa at the meeting" and you gave this answer: "No, no, no, he was not there, but after the meeting they made it possible to send it as a message to all the front lines."

My question today: Is what did you mean by that answer, "They made it possible to send it as a message to all the front lines"?

Well, not all everybody was fortunate to be present in that meeting because it was not possible to withdraw everybody from the front line to attend the meeting. So it was only after the meeting was held that all that was discussed was passed on to all stations so that all the commanders who were not present would be able to get the information.

How was the information --

Your Honours, the interpreters on the other side of the booth are asking that when learned counsel is reading most especially from a text to please read it slowly.

I am sorry about that. I will bear that in mind. I apologise:

Mr Witness, how was this information passed on?

Well, Mr Bockarie wrote it in a message form and sent it to all stations.

By what means did he send it to all stations?

Well, we had radios. We had radios in all the front lines that we used to communicate.

Now yesterday when we finished you were going through and telling us about the people who were at the meeting and we got to the person Superman who you said was also known as Denis Mingo. What was Superman's position?

Well, Superman was also one of the senior men in the movement. He was a vanguard. They were the ones who came.

What do you mean by "a vanguard"?

Well, the vanguards were the ones who were trained for the RUF mission and they were trained in Liberia for the RUF mission. Those were the ones who were - who the leader called the vanguards. That was the name we knew for them.

What group did Superman belong to?

RUF.

Another person you mentioned at the meeting was Morris Kallon. Where was Morris Kallon from?

Morris Kallon is a Sierra Leonean.

And what was his position?

They were the ones who came. He is also a vanguard.

Which group was Morris Kallon in?

RUF.

Another person you mentioned was Akim Turay, where was Akim Turay from?

Well, Akim Turay is a Sierra Leonean.

What group was he in?

Well, he was a Sierra Leone soldier.

And what was his position, if he had any?

Well, at that time he was in Kono. He was the deputy brigade commander under the 2nd Battalion.

One of the things you said - one of the things you did yesterday was to list the topics that were discussed at the meeting and, just to remind you, you said the topics were the promotion of Sam Bockarie, "the command structure between us and the AFRC", the role of Jungle, the Fitti-Fatta operation, the fact that Sam Bockarie told you of his intended travel to Burkina Faso and the fact that Sam Bockarie told you about diamonds going missing that Issa Sesay had had. You also said in the course of your evidence that there were so many other things discussed. Can you recall what other things were discussed, apart from the six topics I have just mentioned?

Well, during every meeting after the headlines were read out they will have it - those on paper, and after the main points were discussed they will have the AOB, that is any other business, and so if you had extra problems, target problems, if you had things that were disturbing you in your own area, like personal things, the things that used to happen on the front line, shortages, shortages of ammunition. I spoke about shortage of ammunition in my own area and so many other men discussed things that were happening in their own areas, but the major items for which they called the meeting were those ones.

You have referred to this particular meeting, this eight hour meeting, as "The first meeting we held". Was there a meeting - another meeting - after this first meeting?

Yes.

How long after the first meeting was the next meeting?

Well, it did not take too long. It was within a short period, and it was the time after Mr Bockarie had travelled and returned that we held the meeting; after he had travelled to Burkina Faso and when he returned.

How do you know that Mr Bockarie travelled to Burkina Faso?

Well, before he left he told us. He told us, those of us who were around. Especially those of us who were in the Kailahun District, some of the commanders, he told us that he was going to travel.

And did he, as far as you know, travel to Burkina Faso?

Yes.

How long was he gone for?

Well, that man he went - I think he spent up to a month before he returned.

Did he tell you what he did when he was in Burkina Faso?

Well when he returned he did not actually convene a general meeting to tell us what he went for, but when he came the things that he brought that made us to actually believe that he went there because we had never received such items.

What were those things that he brought?

He brought sufficient war materials: arms and ammunition, bombs, combats, boots and some other items.

What quantity of arms did he bring?

Well I cannot estimate that now, because I was not present when he arrived and before we arrived there everything was now stored in the ammo dump.

Did you ever learn about what type of arms he brought?

Yes.

What were they?

He brought AK-47s, he brought G3s.

What are G3s?

It is an arm. The Nigerians call it Babangida. That is G3. He brought hand grenades. He brought mines. He brought RPG rockets. He brought the tubes - the RPG tubes. He brought G3 rounds and some other things, but for now those are the ones I can recall. The items were plenty. He brought combats and boots.

What do you mean by combats and boots? What are they?

Well, that is what call somebody a soldier. The fatigues that the soldier puts on are what is referred to as combat and the boots that they normally wear.

Do you know whether Sam Bockarie went to Burkina Faso on his own, or with another person or other people?

Well according to him he said it was him and General Ibrahim, because just as he told us in the first meeting it was the same thing that he told us later. He said he and General Ibrahim. Ibrahim Bah.

Did he tell you at any stage what he had done in Burkina Faso?

Well he said he went and met with the President of Burkina Faso, because he went to him personally.

And did he tell you what took place when he met with the President of Burkina Faso?

What happened?

Yes, in the meeting with him and the President of Burkina Faso?

Repeat, repeat. I am not getting it clearly. I am not getting all.

Did Sam Bockarie tell you what happened in this meeting that he had with the President of Burkina Faso?

No, he did not discuss that with me.

Now, you said this second meeting that you held was after Sam Bockarie returned from Burkina Faso. My question is approximately how long after he returned was this second meeting held?

Well just as he returned, because it was in December that he returned and at that time it was almost little beyond middle way December, and it was in the same December that we held the meeting.

And what year are we in?

It was in 1998.

Where was this meeting - this second meeting - held?

At Sam Bockarie's house.

Where was Sam Bockarie's house?

That is going towards Foya, Foya Road.

What town was it in?

Buedu.

Who was at the meeting?

Well, we were up to 12 in number present.

Are you able to name the 12 who were present?

Well, I can try. I can try.

Please do.

Well Mr Bockarie was present, Issa was present, Morris Kallon was present, Jungle was present, Eddie Kanneh was present, I was present, Major Francis was present, Matthew Barbor was present, Junior Vandi was present, Gbessay Gbobah who is normally referred to as Chucky was present and I think --

I am sorry, but could you repeat Chucky's name? Please repeat Chucky's name.

Gbessay Gbobah. Gbessay Gbobah.

Just before I turn to the spellings, can you recall if anyone else was present?

Well, we were 12 in number that particular night that we were present. I don't know how many names I have made mention of, but we were 12 in number.

Now, one person you mentioned who you have not mentioned before is Major Francis. Was that his full name, or do you know his full name?

Well, that was how we used to call him. He was a Gambian, Major Francis.

What was his position?

Well, he was part of the Special Forces that came. They and Sankoh trained together, according to what Pa Sankoh told us.

Can you repeat the surname of this Sam person?

Which one?

You said that "He ...", that is Major Francis, "... was part of the Special Forces that came. They and Sam [somebody] trained together". Who was this Sam person?

I said they and Sankoh trained together. He was his colleague. He was his comrade. They all trained together.

Did you say Sankoh and he trained together?

Yes, together with Francis.

Who are you referring to when you say "Sankoh". What is this Sankoh's full name?

Well, he is called Foday Sankoh. He was the RUF leader.

You mentioned a person called - I am sorry, before I go on to that, tell me what were the Special Forces that you referred to that Major Francis was a part of?

Well, those were the ones who took their training in Libya. That was outside. They were the Special Forces.

And what role, or what function, did the Special Forces have at the time that you held this meeting?

Well, they were the senior men. They were the first people who started planning the missions. They were the senior men in the revolution.

Madam President, before we lose off the top of the page this particular account, I am not clear whether the witness is saying that this Sam person was with Major Francis, or not. The Sam person has suddenly come into the story, but I am not quite sure in what context.

Your Honour, the evidence is I think that he was saying "Sankoh", rather than "Sam". That is the way I have interpreted.

Well, let us hear it from the witness as to who exactly he is referring to.

The person that you said was with Major Francis, can you just state that person's name again?

I said Sankoh. Sankoh. Foday Sankoh.

Now when you said he was with Major Francis, was Foday Sankoh at this meeting?

No, I am talking about the base. I said they were all at the base in Libya together. That is what I am talking about. I am not saying Foday Sankoh was present in that meeting. At that time, he was not there. I said he was together with Foday Sankoh at the base.

Thank you.

Mr Munyard, does that clarify?

I am very grateful. The way it was set out was, "This person Sam was somebody Pa Sankoh told us about." That's why a third individual appeared to have come into the story.

We did notice that and I'm not sure whether it was pronunciation or interpretation or what, but --

I'm clear now.

Thank you.

Well, Mr Witness, was there a person called Sam at the meeting?

Well, the person who was there, he was Sam Bockarie. He was the only Sam, Sam Bockarie. He was Mosquito. That is his name, Sam Bockarie. Thank you too.

You've mentioned a person Matthew Barbor. Who was Matthew Barbor?

Well, Matthew Barbor was a Liberian.

What group did he belong to?

Well, he was with the NPFL in '91 when they came.

As at December 1998 when you had this meeting what group was he with?

Who?

Matthew Barbor.

He was now with the RUF. He was with the RUF.

The only spelling I have for Barbor is as it's spelt. Sorry, B-A-R-B-O-R. Matthew Barbor:

Another person you mentioned --

We have had a Matthew Barbue before spelt the way it is spelt on the record now. I don't know if this is one and - but the one you are spelling is different.

Could you excuse me. I just need to --

Excuse me please, I want to drink.

Please help yourself, Mr Witness.

I am told that the way I have spelt it under instructions from Mr Santora is in fact the correct way.

I'm staying out of this.

It's your evidence. We cannot contest it.

I know, your Honour. That's what I am told; this is the correct spelling:

The other person or another person that you have mentioned is Junior Vandi. Have you mentioned him before?

Yes.

Did he have another name apart from Junior?

JR.

And you gave some evidence about him yesterday, is that so?

Yes.

And the final person you mentioned was this person who you knew as Chucky. I think you said his name - can you repeat Chucky's actual name?

Gbessay Gbobah.

G-B-E-S-S-A-Y for the first name Gbessay. Gbobah, B-G-O-B-A-H [sic]:

Where was Gbessay Gbobah from?

Well, he was RUF.

Where did he come from?

He was a Sierra Leonean. He was born in Kailahun.

Now what were the topics that were discussed at that particular meeting?

Well, firstly we discussed about trying to free the leader and in that case we were to re-attack Kono and go up to Freetown and then free our leader and take over power. We also discussed the disloyalty of SAJ Musa. We discussed that.

In relation to this operation to trying to free the leader, what leader are you referring to?

Foday Sankoh.

You said that there was a plan to attack Kono and then to free the leader and to take power. I want you to explain in more detail what exactly this plan was.

Well, when Mr Bockarie came he called on us because there was no need for him to call all the officers again, so those of us who were closer to his location, he invited us. We came to Buedu and then he explained to us that he has brought ammunition, he has brought enough logistics so that we will be able to run any kind of mission. So he said we should now plan how to take the move and that the first target should be Kono, to Makeni, up to Freetown. And that the next target should be Segbwema and Daru, that is heading towards Kenema and to go to the southern province. So those were the things we discussed and the issue of SAJ Musa's disloyalty that he has been doing all along. That was also something we discussed.

When you say the first target should be Kono, to Makeni, up to Freetown, what do you mean by that the first target was to be Kono?

Well, Kono is a mining area. In that whole country that is the place we know for high level productivity for diamonds, so we believe that if we were able to capture there first it would have been good for us. That was the reason why Kono - he said Kono should serve as the first target that we should capture.

Were any particular commanders given the role of capturing Kono?

Well, yes.

Who?

Well, Sam Bockarie told us that this plan was designed in Monrovia with Mr Taylor. He said it was designed in Monrovia so he only brought it to brief us, that this should be the way we should do things so that we will be able to succeed in the war.

Who was it that was going to attack Kono?

Well, the commanders were there, Issa was there, Morris Kallon and Superman. They were the most senior men that were supposed to run this mission in those areas.

When you say run this mission in those areas, which areas are you talking about?

Kono.

The plan was then to move on to Makeni, is that right?

Yes.

What was to take place at Makeni?

Well, they should clear starting from Kono up to Makeni and those are towns that you cannot just jump over and go to Freetown, they were provincial headquarters, you have to pass through them first.

What do you mean when you say, "They should clear"? What do you mean by "clear"?

Clear in the sense - clear in the sense that when as you push forward you shouldn't spare any town, you shouldn't jump over any town, you shouldn't leave any town untouched. You have to pass through them all and make sure that they are under control. That is what I mean by "clear".

What commanders were given the role of clearing Makeni?

It was Issa who was the overall for that operation and Morris Kallon was his deputy and Superman was third in command.

Then you said on to Freetown. Was anyone given the role of moving on to Freetown?

Yes, they gave the mission to somebody.

Who?

Well, Sam Bockarie sent the message to SAJ Musa even before they attacked Kono but he refused. He rejected the orders. He said he cannot take orders from him, so there was a heated argument over the issue.

When you refer to this heated argument, did it take place in this meeting?

You mean whether the argument took place during the meeting?

Yes.

Yes, after the meeting he called him, but in fact the argument had started for a long time ago.

Mr Witness, we did caution you about saying "he called him". Please use names so that we can follow. Please repeat your answer.

Okay. Well, repeat the question.

The question was when you were referring to a heated argument I asked you whether the heated argument took place in the meeting that you have been giving evidence about?

After the meeting, but there had been arguments even before the meeting, before this mission there had been an argument. Just at the time Sam Bockarie sent the message to all the stations, right from that time SAJ Musa was not happy about it. He was disgruntled right up to this mission time and after they had held the meeting. He sent the same order to SAJ Musa and he refused even before the Kono thing.

I am going to come back to this issue about SAJ Musa in a moment, all right? One of the things you said was that the next target was to be Segbwema and Daru.

Yes.

Who, if anyone, was given the role of taking Segbwema and Daru?

I was.

Now the second issue that you said that was discussed at the meeting was SAJ Musa.

Yes.

What was it about SAJ Musa that was discussed at the meeting?

Well, Sam Bockarie told us that the complaint had gone up to Mr Taylor, that the man's complaints had been lodged about his disloyalty towards the mission, and he too gave his own piece of advice just so that --

Can I just ask you to pause there for a moment. Once again it's important that you use people's names. Sam Bockarie told you that a complaint had gone up to Mr Taylor, "That the man's complaint", who is the man that made the complaint?

Sam Bockarie lodged the complaint to Mr Taylor against SAJ Musa regarding his attitude.

What was it about SAJ Musa's attitude that he complained about?

He said he was a man who did not take any order from people. He was disloyal to the command.

At the meeting was there any other discussion about SAJ Musa, apart from the fact that Sam Bockarie had made a complaint to Mr Taylor?

Yes, Mr Bockarie made us to understand that that man should not leave to tell the story and the only way we were to --

What man?

SAJ Musa. SAJ Musa.

SAJ Musa should not leave to tell the story. Continue from there?

Not live. The record says "leave", but it is actually L-I-V-E, I imagine.

Yes:

What did you say? Can you repeat your answer? You said, "Mr Bockarie made us to understand that that man should not ..." Can you continue from there?

He said we should go all out to ensure that that man should not live to tell the story.

Mr Interpreter, what word did the witness use?

Live to tell the story.

L-E-A-V-E?

L-I-V-E.

And just so it is clear, what man should not live to tell the story?

SAJ Musa.

Did Sam Bockarie say anything else about SAJ Musa not living to tell the story?

Yes, yes.

Now, take it slowly and tell us what he said.

He said we should only be able to get him when there was a mission, when there was operation going on. He even made us to understand that that was something he had been discussing with Gullit, that during any mission that man should not live. He should die because he was a traitor. He referred to him as a traitor.

Did Sam Bockarie say how SAJ Musa was to die?

Well, in the military terms they say it should be during operations. You know, if they will mean arms. He should die during the battle. He should be shot.

Did he say who should shoot him?

He just told us that he had spoken to Gullit and that the two of them had been discussing that even before Gullit went to where SAJ Musa was. That was what he made us to understand.

He made you to understand that he had been discussing this with Gullit, is that what you are saying?

Yes, yes.

Did he make you understand who was to do the killing of SAJ Musa?

It was the discussion that he had with Gullit. He did not specify who should do the shooting, but the discussion had been going on together with Gullit.

This particular meeting, how long did it go on for?

It was a very short meeting, just for three hours, because it was at night and we did not even want Johnny Paul to know.

Ms Baly, I am not clear from the record when this meeting took place.

I think we actually have that. It is mid-December. He did give the evidence that the meeting took place in December of 1998 and he said around the middle, if I can just find it. I can clear it with the witness now:

Mr Witness, I am going to ask you again when was it that this meeting - this second meeting - took place?

It was at night in December.

December what year?

1998.

Are you able to say - and please tell us if you can't say - when in December the meeting took place, or when abouts?

I cannot recall the exact date now, but it was at night that we held the meeting. I cannot recall the date.

Ms Baly, the witness mentioned a phrase that SAJ Musa was disloyal to the command. What command? I would like to know.

What command was SAJ Musa disloyal to?

The RUF command.

Was he disloyal to the RUF command generally, or was it some commander in the RUF specifically?

Well, I believe in the RUF if somebody was disloyal to Sam Bockarie's command then that should be that you are disloyal to the RUF command because he was the head.

Thank you.

Thank you too.

This meeting - this three hour short meeting - was there anything else discussed apart from the plan to attack Freetown and the SAJ Musa issue?

Yes.

What?

Well, at that time even the leader who had his revolution was there. That should be the first target, to go to Pademba Road and to free - to release the leader, and second we were to go to State House and overthrow the President and if possible, if we met him there, we should kill him.

Just so it is clear, what President was to be overthrown and if possible killed?

President Kabbah.

And what leader was to be released from Pademba Road?

Foday Sankoh.

The person Jungle who you discussed yesterday, was he at this meeting?

Yes, yes, he was part of this 12 man meeting.

Did Jungle speak at the meeting?

Yes, later, after the plan had gone on, Sam Bockarie spoke to Mr Taylor about the plan, how the mission was to carry on, and --

Your Honours, can the witness repeat his last answer?

Mr Witness, the interpreter asks that you repeat your last answer. Please pick up from the point where you said "... how the mission was to carry on". Continue from there.

They briefed President Taylor, the former President, about the plan how it was set. After that Jungle too buttressed the same topic to him, how the plan had been made, and he in turn thanked them and told them to carry on and that he said he would pray that the mission would be successful.

Just a moment. "Jungle too buttressed the same topic to him", who is him?

To Mr Taylor.

How did --

Ms Baly, the question you asked previously was did this man Jungle speak at the meeting and then the answer that follows doesn't answer your question.

I will go back to that:

My question - and just listen carefully to the question - is I am referring to in the meeting, this three hour meeting, during the meeting did Jungle speak?

Yes.

What did Jungle say in the meeting?

Well, in the first place Jungle himself told us about the material that Mr Bockarie had brought and that we should not fear this time round and that there was no force that could withstand us. That was what he said in the meeting and he said he had discussed it with the Pa in Monrovia even before they came.

And did he say what the Pa had said in Monrovia?

Yes, it was just what Sam Bockarie told us. He just spoke about the same issues Sam Bockarie had spoken about, that the Pa had said our first target should be Kono before we should proceed. That was what he too explained.

When you are saying "he", "he too explained", who are you referring to? Who was the "he too that explained"?

Mr Taylor.

Well, Mr Taylor was not in the meeting.

I know, your Honour:

The questions I have been asking you are about what Jungle said in the meeting and you have told us that Jungle said he had some discussion with the Pa in Monrovia about the plan. I am going to ask you - my question is did Jungle say in the meeting what the Pa had said to Jungle in Monrovia?

Yes, that is what I explained. I said they were the ones who came, so he too told us about the materials that had been brought for the mission and that the Pa - that they had discussed with the Pa how the mission should go on. That is Pa Taylor.

I am sorry, but now I don't know who the "they" is. I said, "They were the ones who came". Can we please find out from the witness who he is talking about at this stage?

Now what you said a moment ago was, "I said they were the ones who came". Who are "they" that came?

Jungle. Jungle.

So, Jungle is one person?

And Sam Bockarie.

And Jungle and Sam Bockarie you have already told us were both at the meeting, is that right?

Yes, yes.

Now apart from Jungle telling you that he had discussed the plan with the Pa in Monrovia, did Jungle say anything else at the meeting? At the meeting?

Well, that is what he said. That is what he said.

After the meeting, immediately after the meeting, what did you do?

After the meeting, I returned to my area of operation to be able to start preparation for my own responsibility that was given to me so that I would carry it out.

Before we go to that, this meeting you said was held at night. About what time in the night was the meeting held?

That meeting I will think it was 9 o'clock, or thereafter.

It went for approximately three hours. Did it finish around midnight?

Yes, yes.

On that night immediately after you left, or immediately after the meeting had finished, did you see Jungle?

After the meeting had concluded?

Yes, immediately after.

Yes, yes. I saw Jungle.

What did Jungle do immediately after the meeting?

Because that time was night all of us went to bed.

You gave some evidence about five or ten minutes ago about Jungle --

Can I ask my learned friend to be very careful not to lead. I am simply putting down a marker, that's all.

Thank you. I won't lead. I will turn to what he said. Just pardon me for a moment. Excuse me, I am just trying to find a certain place:

You gave some evidence earlier when you used the phrase, "They briefed President Taylor".

Yes, yes, but the question that I heard just now was after, after the meeting. After the meeting and during the meeting are not the same questions. I spoke about after the meeting and after the meeting everybody went to bed. If you had told me during the meeting what everybody said --

Mr Witness.

Yes, yes.

Counsel has a different question. Listen to the question, please.

The question is: Who briefed President Taylor?

First it was Sam Bockarie. He held the phone and spoke to the Pa. He briefed him about the arrangement we had done about the mission and later Jungle himself went on the same phone and spoke on the same topic to President Taylor, that we had arranged everything to run the mission.

Where was this phone?

It was the same veranda at the back of Mr Bockarie's house. The veranda at the back. That was where the phone was.

What type of phone was it?

It was a satellite phone.

Ms Baly, I am still unclear about this area. This witness, when you asked him what happened in the meeting, he then spoke about this testimony you are considering and he says, "Yes, later after the plan had gone on Sam Bockarie spoke to Mr Taylor about the plan, how the mission was to carry on" and et cetera, et cetera. Now, this later, how much later was this after the meeting is what I would like to know and how this witness knew about this conversation I would also like to know.

When you gave some evidence and Justice Sebutinde has just read out some of the things that you said about conversation with Charles Taylor by Sam Bockarie about the plan, where were you when that conversation took place?

All of us were in the veranda where the meeting was held. I was at the veranda myself. I was part of the meeting.

Did this conversation take place during, or as part of the meeting, or at the conclusion, or after the meeting?

About the time the meeting was to be ended. All of us, 12 of us were there.

Are you saying the 12 of you were there when the conversation took place?

Yes, because the meeting had not ended yet so all 12 of us were still there.

Just so that it's clear, who was doing the talking on the satellite phone?

I said first it was Mr Bockarie.

Just so it's clear, and I know you have gone over this, but just take it one step at a time, what exactly did Sam Bockarie say at that time on the phone?

He told him about the mission that had been discussed in Monrovia. He said he had come and put it to the senior officers and that was the meeting that was going on and that the same plan he had given to him was the same plan they had come to discuss.

Same plan that they had given to who?

Sam Bockarie.

After Sam Bockarie spoke you said Jungle spoke.

Who gave the plan?

Mr Taylor. Mr Taylor.

Thank you.

After Sam Bockarie spoke, did anybody else speak?

Yes.

Who?

Jungle.

And what did Jungle say?

He repeated the same thing to Mr Taylor, because he was the representative for him in the RUF, so he explained the same thing to him; that the plan they had discussed in Monrovia, they had come and put it to the senior officers and they had assured him that they would go ahead with the plan.

How long did this conversation or did these conversations take?

They did not take long. It was just short conversations, just as what I have explained. It was not a long thing. I did not, for example, look at my watch to see how many minutes or hours, but it was just a short conversation.

After the conversation is that when you went to sleep for the night?

Yes, all of us went to sleep.

The next day --

Ms Baly, I would also like to know, and this is why I asked, how does this witness know about this conversation? I don't know how the satellite phone works but I can understand him listening to Bockarie and Jungle. How does he know who was on the other side?

Mr Witness, how do you know who was on the other side of the satellite phone who Sam Bockarie and Jungle were talking to?

Well, they told us that they were talking to Mr Taylor, that they were calling Pa Taylor. And when they called the conversation was going on, we were not hearing what the other side, but when the other side was talking they were responding and the discussion was going on. They said it was Mr Taylor.

During the actual talking that was going on did you hear Mr Taylor's name mentioned?

Yes, sir.

I hope that makes it clear how he knew:

The next day what did you do?

Well, the next day he invited us again to go and see the armament that he had brought, the logistics that he had brought.

Mr Witness, you are using the word "he" again. It's important that you use names rather than he. So who invited you? Who was it?

Sam Bockarie.

What did Sam Bockarie invite you to do?

He invited us to go and see the materials he had brought, the logistics he had brought.

He had brought from where?

From Burkina Faso.

And did you go and see the materials that he had brought?

Yes.

Where did you go?

In his ammo dump.

Where was his ammo dump?

Very close to his house.

Where was his house?

Buedu Road.

When you went to this ammo dump what did you see?

I saw a lot of logistics. I saw AK rounds. I saw the rifle itself, AK. I saw G3. I saw G3 rounds. I saw combats. I saw boots. I saw grenades. I saw mines. I saw the RPG, the rocket and the tubes. Those are the ones I can recall now.

What did you do after you saw this material?

Well, they gave me my own responsibility and they asked me to go and start putting men together. I went and met - I should go and meet the brigade commanders so we should start to put the men together.

What were you putting the men together for?

It was to carry on my own mission that was given to me, that was to capture Segbwema and Daru and, if possible, to go even beyond.

And did you put the men together?

Yes, yes.

And did you meet with the brigade commanders?

Yes, sir.

Who were the brigade commanders that you met with?

I met with 1st Brigade commander, Mr Denis Lansana.

What did you do after you had put the men together and met with Denis Lansana?

Well, we informed Mr Bockarie and he said the men should be intact because the attacks should go on concurrently. Kono, Segbwema, those two flanks, the attacks should go on concurrently.

So did you commence the attack that you were responsible for?

Yes.

And what exactly did you do?

The first target was Segbwema. I cleared Segbwema.

The witness said something that doesn't make sense. "Mr Bockarie said the men should be entered." What is that?

What did you mean when you said Mr Bockarie said the men should be entered?

Enter where?

It was a phrase that you used. I will just read it to you.

Your Honours, the word used was intact. Not enter. It might have been recorded wrongly by the stenographer.

I heard "intact" as well.

In that case what does, "The men should be intact" mean?

What does it mean, Mr Witness, "The men should be intact"?

Well when you put men together, if the mission was not ready yet they should not scatter about. They should not go anywhere. That is what I know about intact. They were to be together. Nobody should move away from the group. That is my own understanding about the word intact.

You said you were - the first target was Segbwema and that you had cleared Segbwema. What do you mean by you cleared Segbwema?

Well the enemies who were there, I pushed them out of the town. That means I cleared the town.

What did you do after you had cleared Segbwema?

I headed for the other target.

Where did you head?

Daru barracks.

And what did you do when you got to Daru barracks?

I attacked Daru barracks also.