The transcripts of the trial of Charles Taylor, former President of Liberia. More…

  • Now, Mr Witness, we are going to resume your evidence and first of all I remind you, as I have done previously, that you are still under oath and you are obliged to answer questions truthfully. You understand?

  • Yes.

  • Mr Munyard, you were in the midst of your cross-examination.

  • Thank you, your Honour:

  • Mr Mansaray, we were talking yesterday about the records that you made of complaints, reports that you put in about the conduct of members of the RUF towards civilians. I want to ask you just a little bit more about that, please. You told us at the end of yesterday that you yourself kept duplicate copies of reports that you sent to your superiors, so that one day Foday Sankoh could read them if he wished to. Do you remember saying that?

  • Yes, I said that yesterday.

  • You also told us that there were a series of different IDU officers in different parts of the country. Do you remember saying that?

  • Can you tell us how many different IDU officers' offices there were? How many places were the IDU based in?

  • Well, I cannot explain to you exactly about the various parts there were in the RUF operational zones. All the brigades had IDU commanders, battalion IDU commanders, company IDU personnels.

  • So is this what you are saying: That there were a number of different places where the IDU were, but you couldn't give us a total figure for the different IDU groupings in different parts of the country?

  • I cannot give you an exact number of IDU commanders, or personnel. I can only explain the structure of the IDU in the RUF organisation.

  • Can you give us a rough idea of the numbers of IDU commanders?

  • Yes, I can try that.

  • We had an overall IDU commander who was Augustine Gbao. We had four brigades in the RUF. There were IDU commanders who were brigade commanders. Each brigade had four battalions. Each battalion had four companies. Then from the brigade to the battalion and companies, they had IDU workers under those commanderships in those positions. So was the structure of the IDU.

  • Was there a central registry, or a central office, to which all IDU reports were meant to be sent?

  • It didn't happen that way.

  • Is this the position: That individual IDU commanders sent their reports off to their immediate superiors and if they wanted to keep a copy of their reports they would keep it themselves, wherever they were located?

  • Well, the IDU - if the report was prepared by the company commander, that report would be sent to the battalion IDU commander. Then the battalion commander would send that to the brigade IDU commander. Then the brigade IDU commander will send that to the overall commander. That was the way we operated.

  • Do you know what the overall commander did with the actual physical reports that he received? Did he keep them in one particular place, do you know?

  • Well, that I can't say because he was an overall commander. I couldn't say whether he kept them, or he gave them to any other person.

  • You told us yesterday that you kept duplicates of the reports that you sent off. Where did you keep those duplicate reports?

  • I kept them with me where I was at the time.

  • For how many years were you keeping these duplicate reports in the belief that Foday Sankoh might one day want to read them?

  • From November 1996 I kept duplicate records. Of the time I was working as an IDU, I kept duplicate records of reports from - up to July 2000.

  • So for nearly four years you kept copies of all the reports you sent off?

  • Yes.

  • Where did you keep them?

  • I kept them in the house where I was residing. They were with me.

  • We know you moved to various places during those years. Did you take the reports to each new place you moved to?

  • Yes, they were with me.

  • So what happened to them, all these duplicate reports? Where did they end up?

  • Well, after - when Issa Sesay, Morris Kallon and my former commander took the law into their own hands and held UN peacekeepers and killed them - so when they too came to rescue their personnel in Pendembu and Kailahun, during the ensuing scuffle everything was bombed.

  • Sorry, during what ensuing struggle?

  • That was the time when the UN peacekeepers came to rescue their colleagues in Kailahun and Pendembu, so when they came, the order given by Issa to fight with them, they too came shooting guns. They had helicopters overhead of us shooting at us, so I was unable to retrieve those documents. So, the house was put on fire and everything got burned. That was in the year 2000.

  • So you are blaming the United Nations for the destruction of all of these duplicate records that you had kept so carefully for four years. Is that what you are telling us?

  • No, I am not blaming the United Nations. I will blame my very commanders Issa Sesay, Morris Kallon and Augustine Gbao, because they took the law into their own hands. They went and gathered fighters together and started killing the UNs, arrested them, took their vehicles. So they too, Issa Sesay said they should not be provided food, so what they did was to come and rescue their colleagues. So the blame will be on my commanders, not the United Nations peacekeepers, but my commanders: Issa Sesay, Morris Kallon and Augustine Gbao. They are the people I will blame. They gave the cause for those documents to be destroyed.

  • Mr Mansaray, did you really keep duplicate copies, for the better part of four years, of these reports, or is that something that you have just made up?

  • That is not an idea. I have been saying this before coming to this Court to say this. I kept them because I was once somebody - the work I was doing, I was so much interested in it, the IDU work I was doing, so I kept documents. I am not just saying it out of my mind, but I kept documents.

  • You told us yesterday that IDU members could fight if they wished to. Do you remember saying that?

  • Yes, I said that to you.

  • Did IDU members always get issued with a weapon?

  • Well, we had weapons that were there to secure our lives and the documents we had. We had weapons.

  • So you carried a weapon while you were in the IDU?

  • Yes, we had weapons.

  • Before you joined the IDU, what was it that you were doing from 1991 onwards, within the RUF I mean?

  • I was a fighter. I used to go to the front line to fight.

  • Did you carry on - did you go to the front line at all whilst you were in the IDU, from 1994 to January 2001?

  • It did happen when instructions were given, or commands given to me from the commanders I used to work for to go with the mission to observe the situation. I used to carry a weapon to secure my life and the documents that were - that used to be in my possession.

  • You told us yesterday also that there were occasions on which you yourself looted people's property. Do you remember saying that?

  • Yes, I said that yesterday.

  • Can you give us some examples of where you looted people's property?

  • Well, let me say this to you: From April 1991 up to the time of the disarmament in 2001 we had lived on looted properties. All the RUF fighters, senior commanders, we had lived on looted items.

  • So you yourself looted property in Quiva, is that right?

  • Right.

  • You were then working as part of the IDU, weren't you?

  • Did anyone make a report about your looting of civilian property in Quiva, for example?

  • Well, that one, I don't know whether somebody wrote about that, but I too used to write the report. I will include in that that we had looted property and, in fact, sometimes when we attacked we forced the people to leave their places, so whatever thing we come across, we loot that one.

  • You are saying you looted people's property when you were in Quiva and you made a report complaining of your own behaviour in looting. Is that what you are telling us?

  • You knew nothing was going to happen as a result of reporting yourself, didn't you?

  • Well, that is what happened, because the commanders told us that they don't have something to pay us, so what we come across is what we are to survive from. So, if we were in the front line we had survived from what we loot.

  • Mr Mansaray, I am asking you about the reports that you wrote. You just told us that you reported yourself for looting property. It is right, isn't it, that you knew that absolutely nothing would happen as a result of you writing a report about your own misbehaviour?

  • About the looting? Nothing happened.

  • You knew that nothing was going to happen if you made such a report, didn't you?

  • Writing reports such as that about yourself, or indeed anybody else, was a completely paper exercise, wasn't it? If you want me to explain what I mean by paper exercise, I will, but I suspect you know. It was a completely paper exercise, wasn't it?

  • Well, we were not writing those things on the paper for nothing. There were crimes we included that needed some form of action to be taken.

  • But you knew that no action was going to be taken on any of these reports, certainly from November 1996, didn't you?

  • That pertains to looting, action was not taken.

  • You knew that from November 1996 no action was going to be taken on any of your reports, did you not?

  • What year are you talking about?

  • From November 1996 onwards you knew that nothing was going to be done about your reports, didn't you?

  • That was the way it happened.

  • Are you agreeing with me that you knew that nothing would happen as a result of writing reports from November 1996 onwards?

  • Well, yes, because they did not act on them from November 1996.

  • When you left the IDU and you went to work in the mines, did you either yourself mistreat prisoners, or order your men to mistreat prisoners?

  • What prisoners? What do you mean?

  • Sorry, I meant civilians. I will correct myself. When you left the IDU and were working in the mines, did you yourself mistreat civilians?

  • Well, I specifically did not do that, but the order that the overall mining commander used to give to me, in the presence of the other mining commanders, I used to pass the order on to them.

  • It is right, isn't it, that you would order your men to bring civilians at gun point to the government mines to mine for the RUF?

  • That was how it happened. That was the instruction I got from the overall mining commander: To order my personnel to do that.

  • Sometimes you saw your men beating the civilians if they refused your order to come and mine for the RUF; that is right, isn't it?

  • Yes, I saw my personnel, who were under my command, I saw them beating civilians who were mining for the RUF.

  • And you knew that that was in breach of the RUF's rules and regulations, didn't you?

  • Yes, that is true.

  • You didn't stop that, did you?

  • Well, I used to stop my men for them not to maltreat them, but that was an order given to me by the overall mining commander, but yet I used to make some effort for them not to do what exactly the overall mining commander was doing, but we tried to do - they did - even though I said that, they did what the overall mining commander was telling us to do.

  • Mr Mansaray, sometimes you did not stop your men beating the civilians brought to the mines, did you?

  • Yes, it used to happen at that time when I was not present. At times they would beat civilians, or meet that - but when I would come I would go and assist the civilians and I will tell the personnel to stop beating the civilians, so the civilians would continue to do their work.

  • And sometimes you didn't tell them to stop beating the civilians, did you?

  • No, it was not like that. When I would be present, I would not allow any confrontation between the personnel and the civilians to continue, I will not allow that, but in my absence, if I sent them to go and bring them, they would go and beat them.

  • Mr Mansaray, you have been interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor on more than a dozen occasions about these events, haven't you?

  • Yes, they had interviewed me about what we were discussing now relating to the mining.

  • Are you aware that the Prosecution have to give us, the Defence counsel, copies of the notes of those interviews with you?

  • I don't know about that.

  • I am not suggesting that you would necessarily remember every date on which you were interviewed, but can you remember being interviewed in October of 2007? That is last year.

  • Yes, I can recall.

  • On the 4th, on the 8th and on 15 October, an interview that went on over several days. Can you remember that?

  • Can you remember, in the course of that interview in October, saying to the Prosecution interviewers that sometimes you would intervene to stop your men beating and sometimes you will not stop the beating?

  • Yes, that happened. That was when I was not very close to them. That was when they would be doing the beating and at times if I saw that the tension was getting high, the civilians were more than us in number, so if I saw that the tension was getting high I would move from the place and the fighting between each other would continue.

  • Do you agree that there were, therefore, occasions on which you did see your men beating civilians but you did nothing to intervene?

  • Yes, you are saying the truth because even the personnel who were working under me, they too were fighters, so they too would take the law into their hands. It could get to a stage where I would be annoyed with them. They would beat the civilians and maltreat them and I regret it at times.

  • You told us yesterday that you made a report that you sent to Francis Musa talking about someone called Alhaji Put More killing 25 or so civilians. Do you remember saying that?

  • Yes.

  • I want to suggest to you that you never sent such a report to Francis Musa. What do you say about that?

  • I sent the report to Francis Musa. Francis Musa came and met me in Segbwema and told me that he had received the report and also said that the killing that Alhaji Put More had done, he was not in favour of it. He himself, Francis Musa, came to make sure that it was correct and he too made it - he was then told and he verified it, that it was correct, in Segbwema.

  • Can you think of any reason why Francis Musa would say that he never received any report from you about Alhaji Put More?

  • I have already told you that Francis Musa received the report. He came and met me. We sat together. He told me he had received the report about Alhaji Put More.

  • I may not have made the question that I just asked completely clear. Can you think of any reason why Francis Musa is now saying that he never received any report from you about Alhaji Put More?

  • I said Francis Musa told me that he received the report. He came and confirmed to me that - confirmed to me that the report that I sent against Alhaji Put More was correct.

  • You also said yesterday that you sent Francis Musa a report about Sam Bockarie getting arms and ammunition from Liberia. Do you remember saying that?

  • No. I told you yesterday that Francis Musa gave the report about the arms and ammunition that Sam Bockarie took from Liberia from the ex-President Charles Ghankay Taylor, so he gave me the report and I travelled with it to Makeni, to Augustine Gbao.

  • Francis Musa was your IDU superior, wasn't he?

  • He would have to report IDU complaints to Augustine Gbao, wouldn't he?

  • And that is the kind of report that he would send to Augustine Gbao, complaints about breaches of RUF rules and regulations.

  • Francis Musa would not have to report to Augustine Gbao about the supply of arms and ammunition, would he?

  • Well, the report that I am talking about is like if an activity had taken place, or bad thing had happened. It was our place, IDU, to take record of daily activities. It was information about the daily activities, the movement of commanders, fighters, or what was happening. It didn't just mean that it was only when commanders will kill civilians, or do bad things, not just that. Whatever happened within the RUF organisation, it was our place to take record of daily activities. That is what I am telling you. The movements that Sam Bockarie was making from Buedu, Liberia, meeting with the ex-President Charles Ghankay Taylor, when Francis Musa was at defence headquarters, he will give the information to Augustine Gbao.

  • I am going to ask you about this expression that you keep using "ex-President Charles Ghankay Taylor", or on occasion "ex-President Dankpannah Charles Ghankay Taylor". You have used that almost entirely throughout your evidence, ex-president. Even when you were talking about what he was doing in 1997, 1998, 2001 when he was still president. Do you remember using that expression in the course of your evidence yesterday and the day before?

  • Yes. If you can recall well, I started from 1991, I used the expression "NPFL leader". When he became a president, that was during those years. That is why I am using the expression "ex-president".

  • Has somebody suggested to you that whenever you mentioned him in the course of your evidence you should call him ex-president?

  • No, I can always recall the year he became president. That is the time I used the expression "ex-president", but when he was a leader I used the expression "NPFL leader".

  • You have never used the expression "ex-NPFL leader", have you?

  • What I have been using - what I was using from 1991, 1992, I told you it was "NPFL leader". I knew then that he was no longer in that position, since 1997 he had become president, so I knew he was not a leader anymore for NPFL. He was president in his country.

  • Are you aware that you are not the first witness in this case to use the expression "ex-President Charles Taylor" when giving evidence about his activities whilst he was president? Are you aware that other witnesses have referred to him in exactly that same way?

  • Well, I don't know if any other witness had come here. I know about mine.

  • Yes. How long have you been in The Hague?

  • I left Freetown 12 February and got here on 13 February 2008. That would be around 25 - if I am not mistaken it will be around 25.

  • So you have been here about three weeks?

  • You could be correct, maybe three weeks or more.

  • And have you been staying in a place with other people who have been giving evidence in this trial?

  • I cannot tell you that. I really only know about myself.

  • As a precaution, could the witness be advised not to call out any names because he is in open session, if he is going to, he be advised not to.

  • I didn't hear the answer properly unfortunately. Have you any objection to that caution being given to the witness, Mr Munyard?

  • I have an objection to the suggestion that all names should be kept from being mentioned. Obviously there are some that he is able to mention and there are some that he shouldn't. I, in fact, was going to tread as carefully as I could in dealing with this, but at the moment I was not proposing asking for any names, but I am quite happy for him to be told that unless he is asked about specific names then he shouldn't mention names.

  • Very well. I will put it in those terms. I think that covers the Prosecution's concerns.

    Mr Witness, when you are answering this question do not name individual people.

  • If you would be so good as to put the question again so we can get the record fluently.

  • Certainly. It has just gone from the top of my screen, but I will try and do it from memory:

  • Were you staying in a place in The Hague with other people who were giving evidence in this trial, either who have already now given evidence, or who are yet to give evidence?

  • The place where I stayed, I am staying there with people who are staff of the Special Court for Sierra Leone.

  • And who else?

  • They are the only ones I see around me who would go to serve me. They say there are staff. They said they are working at the Witness Victims Section, WVS. Those are the only people I see.

  • Mr Mansaray, are you saying that you are staying in a place with a number of other people, but they are all Witness and Victim Service staff and only victim and witness service staff?

  • Yes, they are there, but they are not many. They are not that much, but they are there with me. They lodged me where I am currently.

  • When you have your meals, do other people, other people who are giving evidence, or have given evidence in this case, have meals with you?

  • Well, I don't see any other person. I don't know if the WVS had been giving evidence, I don't know, but I used to see the WVS staff and they are the people who serve me.

  • Have you spent any time, since you have been in The Hague over the last three weeks, with any other person who is a witness in this case?

  • No.

  • Is that a completely truthful answer?

  • I am telling you the truth. Those whom I see around me, they refer to themselves as WVS people. They work for the Special Court.

  • I don't want you to mention any names, but have you spent any time at all, since you have been in The Hague, with a woman who is a witness in this case?

  • No. The only women I used to see, these are the cooks. They cook in the kitchen and they used to give us food to eat. I don't know if there is any other woman who too is a witness. I don't know.

  • The place in which you are staying, is there enough room for other people to stay in it apart from victim and witness service staff?

  • Yes, there are some other rooms and these rooms are occupied by the WVS. I am in the middle apartment and the WVS staff are in the other rooms.

  • So this idea to keep continuously referring to Mr Taylor as ex-President Taylor, even though you are talking about a time when he was the president, is entirely your own idea, is it?

  • Yes, that is what I used to hear. That is what - when somebody was a president and after his tenure people refer to him as ex-president, so that is why I referred to him as ex-president.

  • Right, I am going to ask you to go back to the beginning of your evidence, please, and I want to ask you about the circumstances in which you came to belong to the RUF. How was it that you came to belong to the RUF? What made you join them?

  • They captured me in my home town and took me to the training base to fight.

  • So you didn't join them voluntarily?

  • No, because I was even afraid of them, but I had no option to go anywhere else, so I was captured forcefully to join them.

  • Well, I have already asked you about an interview that took place over several days in October last year. Can you remember the interviewers who interviewed you on the 4th, 8th and 15th September [sic] last year?

  • Repeat the question.

  • Can you remember who the people were who interviewed you over three days in October last year, presumably somewhere in Sierra Leone?

  • Yes, October - you mean October 2007?

  • I do mean that, Mr Mansaray, and you are very good on dates, aren't you?

  • Yes, I can try. I am not perfect, but I can try.

  • Who interviewed you on those occasions?

  • What date are you referring to? Can you please repeat it.

  • The 4th, 5th, 8th and 15 October. Four days, not three.

  • Not that long ago.

  • October 2007 you mean?

  • What? I did not get that clearly.

  • I am referring to October last year.

  • Okay, yes, I can recall I was interviewed.

  • Can you recall who you were interviewed by?

  • I can recall, yes.

  • Who were the interviewers?

  • I saw a white man and a Sierra Leonean.

  • Can you remember the Sierra Leonean's name?

  • What was his name?

  • It was one Mustapha Koroma.

  • He had interviewed you before, hadn't he?

  • So he was somebody who you knew by October of last year?

  • Had you ever met the white man before?

  • No, that was the first time I saw him.

  • His name is Christopher Santora. Have you seen him since you got to The Hague?

  • I want to ask you something that you said to those two when they were interviewing you on 5 October, the second day of the interview. You said to them that you voluntarily went to Zimmi Makpele to join the RUF. Do you remember saying that to them?

  • I told them that, because at that time I had been captured, there was nothing I could do, so I just gave up and went with them at the training because if I had refused they would have killed me.

  • Well, if you had refused they would have made you carry loads on your head, wouldn't they?

  • No, they were to kill me because that was what they did to other young men in the area. When they saw them, they wanted to capture them. If they attempted to escape, they will shoot them. I was not really willing to go, but there was no way I could do and they were in the whole area where we were, Pujehun District.

  • When you joined the RUF did you believe in what the RUF was doing?

  • At the time I joined them, what the leadership said gave me some courage, but I did not believe that because it was not even too long after that the Liberians who came, they were many, more than the Sierra Leoneans, they did a lot of bad things, killing people, burning houses, so within myself I did not trust them that much.

  • Well, I want to ask you about the Liberians. There was a big split between the RUF and the Liberians in 1992, wasn't there?

  • Yes, it happened, it happened.

  • And all Liberian fighters, or certainly anyone connected with the NPFL, were withdrawn from Sierra Leone by May of 1992, weren't they?

  • Yes, it happened that way. It is correct.

  • There was a big disagreement between Foday Sankoh and Charles Taylor in 1992, wasn't there?

  • Well, they were the leaders. I cannot say anything on that. I only knew about the fighters and we who were trained. I knew about ours.

  • But you knew that the RUF separated, broke all connection with the leadership of the NPFL some time in 1992, didn't you?

  • Yes, it happened.

  • You knew also that in Liberia the NPFL were being fought by ULIMO. You knew that, didn't you?

  • And that from 1993 onwards ULIMO controlled the western part of Liberia, cutting off the NPFL from Sierra Leone. You knew that too, didn't you?

  • Yes, it happened. It is correct.

  • And that until he was made president, Charles Taylor was actually fighting ULIMO in his own country. You knew that, didn't you?

  • Yes, I learned about it.

  • I want to ask you then about where you in the RUF were getting your arms, your weapons, because after 1992 and the split between the RUF and the NPFL leadership, the RUF were getting arms from ULIMO themselves, weren't they?

  • Yes, we used to get arms and ammunition from ULIMO-K. That happened.

  • When did that happen?

  • That was the time I came to Buedu. 1996, January, February. We used to get arms and ammunition from ULIMO-K.

  • You used to get arms and ammunition from ULIMO-K in 1995, didn't you?

  • No, no. I don't know about that.

  • Well, can you remember telling interviewers from the Office of the Prosecutor, as far back as November 2003, that in November 1995 Foday Sankoh visited you in the field and at that time you had run short of ammunition. Can you remember saying that to the Prosecutors? It is a long time ago.

  • 1995? Yes, that was it. We didn't get ammunition from Liberia.

  • I am not asking about Liberia generally, I am asking you about ULIMO in particular. Can you remember saying to the Prosecutors, the very first time that we are aware you were interviewed, in November 2003, that Foday Sankoh visited you in 1995 and then he went on to Zogoda and he visited you and at that time you had run short of ammunition?

  • Your Honours, can I just make an observation?

  • It is the practice, I think, for witnesses to be shown their previous statements that counsel is referring to and for the Court to be provided with the same.

  • Do you mean there is a practice direction?

  • No, your Honour, just a practice within the Court procedurally, not any formal practice direction.

  • We have been getting them in the past, but I don't know of any rule or regulation that says they must be in writing.

  • I am not stating that. Just for the convenience of the proceedings and also so the witness can also have his statements in front of him that he is being referred to.

  • The thing is, Ms Alagendra, if the witness says that he doesn't remember saying that then the statement then can be presented to him, but there is no point referring him to a statement if he remembers saying the words anyway.

  • Can I make it clear. My position, at any rate, is not to overburden everybody with reams of paper. Quite apart from the financial waste that that involves, but I am trying to do exactly what Justice Lussick has just indicated and I have already put to him material from an interview that he accepted, eventually, that he had said. It is for that reason that I am trying to avoid - I am not criticising anyone for doing it, but I am trying to avoid burdening everybody with great piles of paper, only one or two lines of which we are looking at in any particular interview. I will certainly give the witness an opportunity to look at anything that he challenges and indeed it would be in breach of my professional obligations, domestic and international, not to give him that opportunity. If I can go back now to the question:

  • Mr Mansaray, you, as we know, have been interviewed over a dozen times by the Prosecution in this case. I am asking you about their record of what you said to them the very first time, we are told, that you were interviewed by them in November 2003, at least four years ago, and that is why I am suggesting you might need a little bit of time to think about it, because it is a while back since that interview. Do you remember saying to the Prosecutor who was interviewing you, or the person employed by the Office of the Prosecution, that in November 1995 Foday Sankoh visited you, he then went on to Zogoda, he came back and visited you later and at that time you had run short of ammunition. Then in the very next sentence you are recorded as saying, "We used to get our ammunition from ULIMO-K. We used to purchase the ammunition with money. At that time they were also on disarmament process."

    Now, let me try and take it in stages. Forget what you told the interviewers for a moment. Is it right that you used to buy ammunition from ULIMO-K with money?

  • It used to happen, but that was in 1996, not 1995.

  • That was from January, February 1996.

  • Right at the beginning of 1996 you were getting - you were buying ammunition from ULIMO-K, yes?

  • Yes.

  • Where did you get the money from to buy that ammunition?

  • Well, the time Foday Sankoh came, November 1996, he said it in a muster parade that he had given money to Sam Bockarie to pay his way to collect some RUF fighters who had crossed Pujehun District into Liberia. According to Sam Bockarie, that was the money we were using to buy arms and ammunition from ULIMO-K. At the same time, from March to April, when he stopped the people from selling cocoa, coffee and kola nut, the proceeds the RUF contractors were selling, whatever we got from that was what was used to buy arms and ammunition from ULIMO-K in 1996.

  • Where else was Foday Sankoh getting money from to buy arms and ammunition, either from ULIMO, or from Guinea?

  • Yes, it happened, I went to Guinea together with my former commander. I saw them brought ammunition in 1996. That happened in my presence.

  • Who were you buying the ammunition from in Guinea?

  • Sorry, I said ammunition. Arms and ammunition.

  • Guinea I saw ammunition, not arms.

  • Limit it to what you saw. Who was it being bought from?

  • I saw the ammunition, but I didn't really know where the commanders bought the ammunition, but I saw them cross over with it in the canoe.

  • I think we may need a spelling.

  • [Microphone not activated].

  • Mr Interpreter, what did you say?

  • C-A-N-O-E, your Honour.

  • So you brought the ammunition across a river in a canoe, from Guinea?

  • The people brought it. They crossed over with it.

  • Did you not ask your commanders, "Well, who are we getting this from?"

  • I did not ask him.

  • You told us earlier this morning that it was part of your duty in the IDU to write daily reports about, amongst other things, supplies of arms and ammunition. Where were they buying this ammunition from in Guinea? Were they buying it from arms dealers, or were they buying it from Guinean troops?

  • I didn't know the people from whom they were buying the ammunition because at that time my commander was with me, so I knew he will do all of that because he was the commander. I just took record of it, that ammunition was coming from Guinea into the RUF zone, but my commander was there and he was the overall IDU commander, so I hope he has more details than I do.

  • Now, there was a time, wasn't there, when ECOMOG were patrolling the Sierra Leone and Liberian border? Can you remember that?

  • Please repeat the question.

  • Can you remember a time when ECOMOG forces were patrolling the Sierra Leone and Liberian border?

  • I cannot answer that question because I don't know what patrol you are talking about, whether it was by land or by air.

  • Your Honours, there is a burnt smell coming from this side of the courtroom.

  • I can smell something like that too.

  • I heard a voice. It is being checked.

  • I don't think anything has reached this side. Well, it is not just my hearing, but my sense of smell as well. It has gone apparently. Mr Anyah can smell something:

  • Mr Mansaray, don't worry about whether it was by air, or land, or canoe. Can you remember a time when ECOMOG forces were patrolling on the border between Sierra Leone and Liberia?

  • Well, patrolling the border, I cannot recall that.

  • Can you remember telling the Prosecution, in that very first interview in November 2003, about an incident when your group had captured two Kamajors who were sent across the river to the Liberian side of the border. I am not going to ask you about the incident. I am just asking you, does that jog your memory?

  • Yes, I can recall that.

  • You told the Prosecutors that ECOMOG forces were on the other side of the river, that is to say the Liberian side. Can you remember that?

  • Yes, I can recall that.

  • Right. Did you ever get arms from ECOMOG?

  • No, we did not get any arms from ECOMOG, nor did we get ammunition from them.

  • I am not suggesting that you necessarily bought arms from ECOMOG, but did you ever seize arms from ECOMOG?

  • No. If it happened - even if it happened, I was not present. I was not in the area where it could have happened, so I don't know about that.

  • Mr Mansaray, you have given lots of evidence over the last two days about events that you were not present at. That has not stopped you giving evidence about things that you have heard, or things that people have told you. Has nobody ever told you about the RUF successfully attacking and seizing arms and ammunition from ECOMOG?

  • Yes, it happened. We attacked them, but you asked if we got arms from them. Yes, we fought them and we got arms from them.

  • So why did you tell me moments ago, when I asked if you ever seized arms from ECOMOG, "No. If it happened - even if it happened, I was not present ... so I don't know about that"? In the space of two minutes you have given two completely contradictory answers, haven't you?

  • No, it was the expression that you used. You said "seized". If you had made it clear that we attacked ECOMOG and took weapons from them I would have answered the question right there, but now that you are saying it clearly, yes, it happened. We fought with them and they too fought with us and we took weapons from them. It happened.

  • What else does the expression "seized" mean if it doesn't mean taking from somebody?

  • When you said "seized", to me it meant we just went and took it from them, but if you had said that it was during an attack, yes, I would have said, yes. We attacked them.

  • We agree on one thing: That you did get arms from ECOMOG without paying for them, yes?

  • Yes, when we attacked them we got arms from them when we were fighting, yes.

  • It happened. While we were attacking them, when we attacked the ECOMOG we captured arms and ammunition from them.

  • And you captured heavy weapons and artillery.

  • Yes, we captured artillery from the ECOMOG. It happened.

  • Yes, it happened.

  • Because you were looking anywhere for arms because you desperately needed them from all over the place, didn't you? You being the RUF.

  • Please repeat this question.

  • The RUF was getting arms from all sorts of places because it was not getting one supply only from one particular source, was it?

  • That is correct. We were not just getting supply from one person, or one angle. We got it from other areas like the ECOMOG, like what you mentioned. When we attacked them we used to get arms and ammunition from them, when we would have fought with them.

  • You bought arms from Guinea, either with money, or trading coffee and cocoa, et cetera. Do you agree with that?

  • We got ammunition.

  • You only know about ammunition, all right. You got arms from Burkina Faso, didn't you?

  • Well, even if it happened I am not aware of it.

  • Let's try that one again. Are you aware of an arms shipment coming by air to Magburaka, bringing arms from Burkina Faso?

  • No, I don't know.

  • Are you seriously saying that nobody ever told you about an arms shipment from Burkina Faso landing at Magburaka?

  • Were you aware of Ibrahim Bah doing arms deals for the RUF with the government of Burkina Faso?

  • I did not know about that. Maybe some other people knew about it, but I didn't know.

  • None of these people that you ever met, like Sam Bockarie and the others that you met at the house that you were telling us about yesterday, none of them ever mentioned an arms shipment coming by air from Burkina Faso. Is that your evidence?

  • Yes. What Sam Bockarie used to tell us, he only used to tell us about ex-President Charles Dankpannah Ghankay Taylor, but for the other people he did not tell me anything like that and he heard that from him. Maybe he told some other people, but for me he did not tell me that.

  • He didn't tell you anything about getting arms from President Taylor, as he then was, did he?

  • Please repeat the question.

  • He didn't tell you anything about getting arms from President Taylor, did he?

  • He told us about that many times. Sam Bockarie used to tell us that he got arms from ex-President Charles Dankpannah Ghankay Taylor.

  • Another country from which Foday Sankoh got money for arms was Libya, wasn't it?

  • I cannot tell because he did not tell us anything about Libya relating to arms and ammunition.

  • He may not have told you personally, but you knew that the RUF was being funded, that is to say getting money from Libya, from the start, didn't you?

  • I was not aware of that. They did not tell me about arms from Libya.

  • Well, are you aware of any contact at all between the RUF and Libya?

  • The only thing I knew about that had to do with RUF and Libya was the people who introduced themselves to us that they were the Special Forces, they had their training in Libya. That is what I know.

  • Yes. Did the people who were introduced to you as having been trained in Libya say anything about Libya funding the RUF, helping out with money?

  • No, they did not tell me about that. They only told me about the training they had in Libya, but that they told me that RUF was getting money from Libya, or arms and ammunition, no.

  • Right, I want to ask you about something else now. On 6 January 1999 you were nowhere near Freetown, were you?

  • I was in Segbwema at that time.

  • What were you doing in Segbwema at that time?

  • At that time I was there as IDU commander in Segbwema.

  • What was the RUF doing in Sebgwema?

  • At that time we were in control of Segbwema, the RUF and the AFRC. We were based there.

  • Is this right, Mr Mansaray, that at that time you were preparing to launch an attack on Kenema?

  • Yes, that is true.

  • And you had no idea about any planned invasion of Freetown in January 1999, did you?

  • Well, I was not aware.

  • You got no information about any plan to attack Freetown in January 1999, did you?

  • I did not get information about that.

  • You were, at that time, completely unaware of anyone planning to attack Freetown on 6 January 1999; is that right?

  • I did not get an idea about it. I did not know.

  • On the contrary, you were taking part in preparations for an attack on Kenema at that time, weren't you?

  • Please repeat the question.

  • Around the time of 6 January 1999 you were part of an RUF group planning an attack on Kenema, weren't you?

  • No.

  • Well, what were you doing around 6 January 1999?

  • I was just there in Segbwema working as IDU.

  • We know what your role was, but the RUF at that time were preparing to launch an attack on Kenema, weren't they?

  • Yes, that is true.

  • Indeed, you told the Prosecution that in that first interview. Can you remember saying, in answer to the question, "Did you get any information about a plan to attack Freetown in January 1999?":

    "A. No, at that time we were preparing to launch an attack on Kenema, but for Freetown I was never told."

  • Your Honours, can I get some assistance as to some page references for the statement my learned friend is referring to?

  • I have to say --

  • I understand it was a record of an interview. Are you talking about a transcript, or an interview, Ms Alagendra?

  • The interview my learned friend is reading to the witness.

  • Why don't we hear the witness's answer. If he remembers saying it, what is the point of looking back at the record of interview?

  • Simply, your Honour, so that we can be sure that that was, in fact, what was stated in the interview.

  • Can I intervene here? Yesterday and the day before, while this witness was being taken through his evidence-in-chief, I had to wade through a mass of papers because his evidence in this courtroom is extracted bit by bit from all over this host of pages of different interviews, a dozen or more, as you know. I didn't ask, at any stage, for my learned friend to identify which particular bit of which interview he was giving evidence about. What I am now being asked to do is assist the Prosecution in helping them to find the bits of the interviews that I choose to refer to. It is not my job in this Court to assist the Prosecution in that way. If the witness agrees that he said that, that is an end of the matter. If the witness disagrees that he said that, then I am duty bound, as has already been discussed, to put it in front of him so that he and everybody else can see what he is referring to. Other than that, my duties are limited to putting the questions.

  • We are aware of the procedure, Mr Munyard. It has been going on ad infinitum and we are not asking you to identify pages.

  • Mr Mansaray, can you remember saying to the Prosecution in November 2003, in the very first interview, when you were asked, "Did you get any information about a plan to attack Freetown in January 1999?", "No, at that time we were preparing to launch an attack on Kenema, but for Freetown I was never told"? Can you remember now saying either that, or words to that effect?

  • Yes, I can remember about that.

  • The statement that I am looking at, which is an answer to the question being quoted here, is not what my learned friend says it says. That is the reason, your Honour, I am asking that my learned friend at least points out to us which part of the statement he is reading from. There is no prejudice in him doing that.

  • Are you quoting ad verbatim from a record of interview?

  • You are now being challenged on the wording, as I understand Ms Alagendra's objection.

  • I note also that the witness has testified that he does remember saying words to that effect.

  • I don't imagine that the witness would have, at this stage, a precise recollection of exactly what he said and, as Justice Lussick has just pointed out, in answer to my question "or words to that effect", the witness has agreed. As far as I am concerned, that is an end of this matter. The Prosecution have a right of re-examination. If they want to put some other part of this interview to him, they can. The witness has agreed that he said words to that effect. I will, for one last time, put exactly what I am reading from the page, exactly as it appears to him.

  • May it please your Honours. If my learned friend is reading from a statement and the text, or the context, the portion of that statement which he is reading is being objected to on the basis that it is not correct - in line with what we have, your Honours I think it might be misleading if counsel is putting that piece of evidence to the witness. It might be misleading. Besides, your Honours, we think it is a matter of courtesy, between counsel, if counsel is referring to a portion of the statement of a witness, or previous testimony, to refer to that portion as we have often done and at their request we have often done that.

  • Mr Munyard, if you have a statement in front of you, why would you ask a witness if he said "words to that effect", instead of reading what the statement actually accurately says?

  • Because for the past 25 years it has been my practice, when questioning witnesses about answers they gave in the past and, in particular, up to four years ago, it has always been my practice to put to them what I understand they have said, or words to that effect, for the simple reason that they are very unlikely indeed to remember exactly what they said. So, I put it to him in that way to be fair to him, with great respect.

  • With respect, Mr Munyard, you are putting a prior witness statement. It is important that you put the prior witness statement, which only you have a copy of. The Bench doesn't have a copy and what you are reading is what goes into the record. There is now a dispute between yourselves and the Prosecution. Do you not think it is only right and fair to the witness that you read accurately, rather than "words to the effect" --

  • With great respect --

  • -- putting a spin on an interpretation, or paraphrasing?

  • I am not putting a spin on anything. Where I come from a spin is a pejorative term. With great respect, your Honour, what I did was I put the exact words first of all and then to assist the witness I said to him "or words to that effect", for the reason I have already explained. How can he be expected to remember now what he said to somebody in November 2003? He can, however, be expected to remember the gist of it, the nub of it. I will do it one more time and to satisfy everybody I will tell my learned friend exactly where I am reading from and I will read it again, exactly as I read it before. It is on page 16.

    Can I correct something that my learned friend Mr Bangura said. He referred to this being a statement. There are no statements in this case. This is a record of an interview. There is no indication that the record was ever given to this witness to sign as a statement.

  • Whatever the case, your Honours, we say that whatever is being read to the witness, which is a document that we have a copy of, we should be shown that what is being put to the witness is accurate enough and simply give us the reference.

  • The witness does not seem to be experiencing any problem in answering these questions and until he indicates to us that he is being mislead, or misunderstood, then the procedure that has been adopted was the procedure that was adopted in the past. But Justice Sebutinde has asked that it be read in its correct wording and record and that is being done now.

  • Mr Bangura, just for my own satisfaction, I cannot understand why the Prosecution is creating all of this fuss when the witness has said yes, he does remember saying that. Is the Prosecution intimating that the witness may not be telling the truth when he says yes, he remembers that?

  • No, your Honours. It may be that the witness recalls an incident which is similar to what has been put to him and he answers "yes". It could be misleading, your Honours.

  • Mr Bangura, there has been a ruling on this and I would only add to endorse what my learned colleague has said, which is that the witness was given a date and did not quibble about that date.

  • We are bound by the ruling, your Honours.

  • Madam President, looking at the record, you indicated, I think to Mr Bangura, "But Justice Sebutinde has asked that it be read in its correct wording and record and that is being done now." I maintain that I always read the correct wording and I am going to read it with a quote.

  • Mr Munyard, for the purposes of record maybe I didn't quite choose my words correctly, but I noted on the record and I noted in my notebook there are inverted commas round the words you used and, for my personal observation, I understood that to be an ad verbatim quotation. I say that for purposes of clarification.

  • Thank you, your Honour. Indeed, you did say that to me earlier. For the last time I am now going to read from the record of page 16:

  • You may remember this, Mr Mansaray, because it is exactly what I asked you about 20 minutes ago. Do you remember being asked a question, "So did you get any information about a plan to attack Freetown in January 1999?", and giving the answer, "No, at that time we were preparing to launch an attack on Kenema, but for Freetown I was never told"? Do you remember saying that, Mr Mansaray?

  • Yes, I can remember. I can remember.

  • I don't imagine now that you remember the exact words that you used in November of 2003, but that is, broadly speaking, what you were telling the Prosecutors then, is it not?

  • Repeat this question.

  • I will move on. You were interviewed again. At the end of the interview on 20 November 2003, the interviewer, a Mr Dafae - I hope I am pronouncing his name correctly. Can you remember Mr Dafae, the first person who interviewed you?

  • Yes, I can remember.

  • At the end of that interview, which lasted almost three hours, he said to you, looking at the record, "Okay, this interview has come to an end. It is now 12 o'clock and we thank you very much, Mr Mustapha, and we hope to see you again for some follow up questions." They did see you again, on 24 March 2004, some four months later. Can you remember being interviewed again in March 2004?

  • Yes, yes.

  • Do you remember this question and then your answer, "About the 6 January 1999 invasion of Freetown, you said you didn't have much knowledge on that one", and the answer you gave was, "Yes". Can you remember?

  • Yes, I didn't have any idea about the January operation in Freetown.

  • Finally, I am just going to ask you about this matter one more time. One of the interviews that was conducted with you in 2006 was on 14 January 2006. Do you remember being interviewed in 2006, several times?

  • I think the first time you were interviewed in 2006 was on 14 January and can you remember saying to the Prosecutor that it was during the time that you were in Pendembu that you learned about the 6 January invasion of Freetown?

  • Well, if I told them that, maybe it was a mistake, but I was in Segbwema when the January invasion took place. It could be a mistake.

  • I don't think you quite understood. I am not talking about when the invasion of Freetown took place. I am talking about where you were when you learned about that invasion?

  • I was in Segbwema.

  • Can you tell us how long after 6 January it was when you heard about the invasion of Freetown?

  • The very day the fighting was going on, January 6, I heard that RUF and AFRC fighters were in Freetown. I got the information.

  • Who did you get the information from?

  • I got it from BBC. Even our radio communication sets, I got the announcement from there.

  • Well, I just want to explore this a little bit further with you. The first time you were asked about this in November 2003 you were asked, "Did you know about any plan that was made for an attack on Freetown in 1999?" The answer that it is recorded that you gave is this, "No, I did not get any information about that because, as far as I know, the people who attacked Freetown in January 1999 were the fighters who were based in the northern part of Sierra Leone, that is Dennis Mingo and others." Do you remember saying that?

  • Yes, I can remember that I said so.

  • When did you learn that it was Dennis Mingo and others, or when were you told by somebody that it was Dennis Mingo and others?

  • RUF had radio operators with Dennis Mingo, so they were communicating with our own radio operators who were at Segbwema. They were communicating. That is how I knew that RUF and AFRC did the attack. It was through the radio communication.

  • Well, let us go then to the interview on 14 January 2006. This is called a proofing and it is headed "Additional Information Provided by Witness" and it gives a number for you that we know as your identification.

  • Mr Munyard, I am just watching the time. We have about one minute left. Will this be a long question?

  • It will because I am afraid I am going to have to quote directly from the page and it is quite a long section.

  • Perhaps, in the circumstances, it would be wise to defer that. I would just let everyone know that we have had a message saying that the burning smell that was causing some concern is from construction work outside.

    Mr Witness, we are now going to take the mid-morning break and we will resume at 12.00. Please adjourn the Court.

  • [Break taken at 11.30 a.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 12.02 p.m.]

  • I note a change at the Prosecution Bar, Ms Alagendra.

  • Your Honours, for the Prosecution now is: Mr Nicholas Koumjian; Mr Mohamed Bangura; myself, Shyamala Alagendra; Mr Alain Werner; and Maja Dimitrova. Thank you, your Honours.

  • Thank you, Ms Alagendra. Mr Munyard, I see your Bar remains as before.

  • We do, your Honour.

  • Please proceed with your questions.

  • Mr Mansaray, you told us this morning that you were in Segbwema when you heard about the January 6th invasion of Freetown, and you also told us this morning that you heard it both on the BBC and also by radio communications that you either looked at, or listened to. What is it you are telling the Court about radio communications? I don't mean the BBC. I mean your own internal radio communications.

  • What I meant was it was a communication and fighters were trained to be radio operators and they communicated between themselves, so whatever message was available they would discuss that and then later they explained to us.

  • Well are you saying you heard radio communications about the invasion of Freetown on 6 January 1999 as it was happening, or later?

  • On that very day when the attack was taking place, January 6th 1999, when the RUF/AFRC started fighting on that day so the communication was going on from those who were at the rear. So, they communicated.

  • I don't think that actually answers your question, Mr Munyard, does it?

  • No, it doesn't, but I am not going to try again:

  • Why didn't you tell the investigators this when they asked you questions about the attack on Freetown in November of 2003, in March of 2004 and in January of 2006?

  • Well, maybe I was not asked a question about that. That is the reason why I did not explain that to them.

  • Well, in March of 2004 you were asked this question, "About the January 6th 1999 invasion of Freetown you said you didn't have much knowledge on that one?", and the answer you give is, "Yes"?

  • That is true, because I was not with them. I heard it from the communication. So I was not there when they were planning it, but I got the information that RUF/AFRC fighters entered Freetown on 6 January and so I hoped the information I gave to the investigation - investigators was enough. I told them, "I heard about the attack, but I was not there", so I hope the information they got was enough.

  • Well, let us look at what the investigators recorded you saying in January of 2006 in something called a proofing. Unfortunately we are not told who the investigators were who interviewed you on 14 January 2006, but this is what they have recorded you as saying. And, Mr Mansaray, it is going to take a moment or two for me to read it, because I want to put it in context. I want to put it in the right time frame. And so if you will bear with me while I read it, I will then ask you several questions about it. This is what is recorded:

    "In February 1998 we received from Rogers the order to retreat to Daru and I stayed there two or three months as IDU Officer Commissioner in charge of a team with Lieutenant Colonel Mohamed Lukulay (also known as Manawa) as my commander. Around May 1998 we moved to Quiva where I stayed five months and reported to Manawa, whose boss was Augustine Gbao based in Kailahun Town. We successfully attacked Segbwema under the command of CO Gaddafi and seized arms and ammunition from ECOMOG. I did not carry a gun as I was IDU officer on this attack, which took place about five days after the final attack by the RUF against Koidu Town. After the attack we stayed two months in Segbwema. Gaddafi was reporting to Francis Musa, who himself was reporting to Augustine Gbao".

    Now before I go on to the next sentence, I am just going to take you through that sequence so that we can work out the time period. In February 1998 you receive an order to retreat to Daru and you stay there for two or three months which takes us to May of 1998, do you agree?

  • No, I would not agree to that.

  • February is the second month of the year, yes?

  • Two to three months after February brings us to the fourth or fifth month of the year, do you agree with that?

  • Yes. In the year, yes.

  • And the fifth month of the year is May, do you agree with that?

  • So, you agree with me after all?

  • No, it is not everything I will agree to. It is the month that you are indicating that goes with the year. It is not the statement that you have made that I will agree to.

  • Mr Mansaray, the very next words supposed to be from you are as follows, "Around May 1998 we moved to Quiva", so it is correct, isn't it, that you remained in Daru until around May, yes?

  • I don't think it is correct.

  • This is what we are told by prosecuting investigators that you told them in January of 2006. Are you saying they have got this wrong?

  • Well it is possible, but the dates you have mentioned I don't think that was the way it happened.

  • Well, we will move on. The next sentence in full reads:

    "Around May 1998 we moved to the Quiva where I stayed five months and reported to Manawa, whose boss was Augustine Gbao based in Kailahun Town".

    Now May is the fifth month of the year and, if you stay there for five months, that brings us to around the tenth month of the year, doesn't it? October, do you agree?

  • The month that you have called I will agree to that, but to say the man you have called Augustine Gbao was his commander I would disagree with that.

  • Well, you are the one who is supposed to have told this to the prosecuting investigators on 14 January 2006. Do you understand that I am not putting something to you that we have come up with? I am putting something to you that the Prosecution say you said, do you understand that?

  • I am getting you clearly what you are saying.

  • In any event that would bring us to October of 1998, wouldn't it? I think you have agreed with that. I will move on.

  • I want you to read and ask me the question again. It is not very clear to me.

  • All right, I will do it again. Do you want me to start back at the beginning in February 1998, or are we all right to start from May?

  • Right:

    "Around May 1998 we moved to Quiva where I stayed five months and reported to Manawa, whose boss was Augustine Gbao based in Kailahun Town. We successfully attacked Segbwema under the command of CO Gaddafi and seized arms and ammunition from ECOMOG".

    Pausing there, is that right that you did successfully attack Segbwema under the command of CO Gaddafi and seize arms and ammunitions from ECOMOG?

  • Well the way you put your question I don't think it is correct, because you are always referring to Manawa being a commander to Augustine Gbao, but I think from the start of my statements I have never mentioned that.

  • So the investigators have got the record of what you told them wrong, have they?

  • Well I don't know if they gave you that report, because what I have been telling them they will always write it and then read it to me, but I have never said Manawa was a commander to Augustine Gbao. Manawa was a fighter and Augustine Gbao was an administrator.

  • Mr Interpreter, I am a little concerned as to what the witness has heard, because I am looking at what counsel put which was quote, "... reported to Manawa, whose boss was Augustine Gbao based in Kailahun", and the witness appears to think that it was put to him that Manawa was Augustine Gbao's commander, the other way round, and the witness is challenging that. What exactly was said to the witness?

  • The question that was asked by counsel was put correctly to the witness.

  • I don't know if you are - ah.

  • Well the interpreter says it was put correctly, but --

  • Shall I try again?

  • I think it would be, because I am quite clear that you have not put it in the order that the witness is responding in.

  • All right. I will just try again:

  • Mr Mansaray, that report that I am reading, which is supposed to be what you told Prosecutors in January 2006, says that you reported to Manawa and his boss was Augustine Gbao based in Kailahun Town. First of all, did you tell them that?

  • No, I did not tell them that, that Manawa's commander was Augustine Gbao.

  • So, they have got that completely wrong?

  • Mr Interpreter, why do you keep using the word "commander" when counsel said "boss".

  • Your Honour, the witness used the word "commander". We are not using "commander". We are using "boss". It is the witness that is using "commander". We are using "boss".

  • I think that is right, actually. I am getting a little bit of what the witness is saying and I think he does say "commander":

  • Let us just explore that a little further, if we can. Did you report to Manawa?

  • You mean talk to Manawa?

  • Mr Mansaray, did you report to Manawa, Lieutenant Colonel Mohamed Lukulay?

  • And whose boss was Augustine Gbao?

  • Well, I don't know about a boss.

  • Very well. I will move on to the next sentence. Did you successfully attack Segbwema under the command of CO Gaddafi and seize arms and ammunition from ECOMOG some time between May and October of 1998?

  • We attacked Segbwema under the leadership of Gaddafi and then we captured some arms and ammunition from the ECOMOG that were based there. We did attack them and captured arms and ammunition from them.

  • So they have got that right when they have recorded you as telling them that, do you agree?

  • The attack and the name of the commander I will agree to, but the month mentioned there I would disagree.

  • When do you say it happened?

  • That was in December, when that happened, in 1998.

  • It then reads:

    "I did not carry a gun as I was IDU officer on this attack, which took place about five days after the final attack by the RUF against Koidu Town".

    Did you tell the investigators that?

  • Yes, when we went there I was not carrying an arm to fight.

  • And did the attack take place about five days after the final attack by the RUF against Koidu?

  • Well I can't say the exact fine period the attack took place in Kono and Segbwema, but I know Kono was first attacked before we went to Segbwema.

  • This is - according to this, you go to Segbwema after the final attack against Koidu Town. Does that sound right?

  • Right. Now the next sentence reads, "After the attack we stayed two months in Segbwema". Is that right?

  • Well, it is not correct.

  • They have got that wrong? Mr Mansaray, are you saying that you gave the investigators information that is wrong, or are you saying that they have wrongly recorded what you told them?

  • Your Honours, can learned counsel please repeat the question slowly?

  • Please repeat your question. I did not understand it.

  • You have just told us that the date is wrong there. Are you saying that the Prosecutors who were interviewing you have mistaken what you told them, or are you saying that you have told them something which you now think is wrong?

  • No, maybe the way you are asking me your question is wrong. What I am saying is I mentioned more than two months in my statement, but I don't know if it is you or the statement taker that gave that, but I mentioned more than two months.

  • Mr Mansaray, you can rest assured that if it is me someone will jump up and object that I am not reading accurately and will then read out what they say the accurate version is. In the absence of any such objection, you can take it that I have read correctly from this document. I am going to move on. The next sentence is this, "Gaddafi was reporting to Francis Musa, who himself was reporting to Augustine Gbao". Did you tell them that?

  • I did not tell them that. Gaddafi was a combatant and Francis Musa was an administrator. I did not mention that in my statement or in interview they did with me.

  • So, they have got that wrong?

  • Well, I don't know.

  • Well they must have it wrong if they have recorded you as telling them that, mustn't they?

  • That was not what I told them. I did not tell them that Gaddafi gave reports to Francis Musa.

  • The next sentence reads, "I was then called with five others by Augustine Gbao at Matotoka and stayed there one week before going to Pendembu to visit my family". Did you tell them that?

  • Yes.

  • When was it, therefore, that you went to Pendembu to visit your family?

  • Well, that was around May to June in 1999.

  • Right. The next sentence reads, "It is during the time in Pendembu that I learnt about the January 6th invasion of Freetown". Did you tell them that?

  • That wasn't what I told them. I told them that I was - I was at Segbwema, but I did not tell them that I was in Pendembu.

  • Can you think of any reason why they have got that so wrong?

  • Well, perhaps it was a mistake in the dates. It is possible it is a mistake.

  • You have never told the Prosecutors in any of the dozen or more interviews that you heard about the invasion of Freetown either on the BBC, or on your own organisation's radio communications network, have you?

  • I believe I did so.

  • You believe you have told the Prosecutors that, is that what you are saying?

  • I believe I told them that I got the information through a communication.

  • Now just before we move off the account that is recorded from you on 14 January 2006, can I ask you to tell us when it is you say you moved to Quiva? We have here, I have just read out to you, that it says, "Around May 1998 we moved to Quiva where I stayed five months". When - is that right? Did you move to Quiva around May and stay there until around October?

  • I was there in October, but I believe it was around March to April in 1998.

  • Do you agree that you left Quiva in October?

  • Well, please repeat the question.

  • Do you agree that you left Quiva in October?

  • I don't believe so.

  • Because here in this account, although you say they have got it wrong when it reads, "Around May we moved to Quiva", you agree that you were there in October. And do you see - do you remember from me reading out this account that it says, "We successfully attacked Segbwema and after the attack we stayed two months in Segbwema"? And if you were in Quiva for five months, including October, then you will have been in Segbwema for the last two months of 1998, won't you?

  • That was not the way it happened.

  • How do you say it happened?

  • Well, I believe it was in December 1998 we launched an attack on Segbwema.

  • When do you say you went to Matotoka?

  • It was around May to June 1999.

  • So if you are in Quiva until December and then you attack Segbwema in December, do you agree that they have got - you have already agreed they got this right that "after the attack we stayed two months in Segbwema"?

  • Yes, that would be correct. It could be more than two months.

  • Mr Mansaray, it is either correct or it is incorrect. It says "after the attack we stayed two months in Segbwema". That would take you to January or February of 1999, wouldn't it?

  • I was in Segbwema during the dates you have just mentioned.

  • It goes on to say, "I was then called with five others by Augustine Gbao at Matotoka and stayed there one week", so that would take you to Matotoka in February, wouldn't it?

  • Augustine Gbao was not in Matotoka when he called us. He was in Makeni.

  • I am not interested in where he was when he called you. I am interested in what has been recorded here that you agreed with about 15 minutes ago, "I was then called with five others by Augustine Gbao at Matotoka and stayed there one week". Is that - did that happen?

  • So, why did you tell us a little while ago that the investigators have correctly recorded you as saying that in January of 2006?

  • The dates you are giving, the time period you are indicating, that was not the way it happened when you say we were there for a week.

  • Mr Mansaray, you agreed they had got this bit of your interview correct when I asked you about it within the last half-hour. Why are you now changing your story and saying that they have got that wrong?

  • Well it is the way you are asking your question, because the first question you asked you did not mention about a week. It is only now that you are adding a week there. That is why I am denying.

  • I am very sorry, but I did read out the whole sentence to you which includes the words "and stayed there one week"?

  • You must be aware after what happened earlier this morning that if I have read anything incorrectly objection is taken. In fact it is even taken when I have read things correctly, but you will be aware objection is taken if anyone thinks I have got it wrong. Do you understand?

  • Yes, I am understanding what you are saying.

  • And so far I have got nothing wrong of what I have read out at to you from the Prosecution written accounts of what you have told them. Do you understand that? I have been putting it correctly.

  • The way I am getting the question, the first question and the second question you have asked there are differences. That is the reason why I disagree with you.

  • Well, let us not worry too much about that. Let us just concentrate on what is written here. Did you stay at Matotoka one week?

  • No, I did not spend a week in Matotoka.

  • How long did you stay there?

  • It was just a day that I spent there.

  • And then where did you go from Matotoka?

  • I went to Makeni and later I went to Magburaka and then I went back to Kailahun.

  • Would it be right to say that after staying at Matotoka you then went to Pendembu to visit your family?

  • So, let us just summarise this. The Prosecution investigators have got it completely wrong that you did not stay in Segbwema two months from around October to December? They have got that completely wrong, is that what you are saying?

  • Well maybe it is a mistake, but when I was in Segbwema I spent more than two months. That could be a mistake.

  • All right. So, they have got that wrong. They have also got wrong who Gaddafi was reporting to, yes?

  • Well the way you asked your question when you said Gaddafi reported to Francis Musa, I did not give them that sort of statement.

  • So, they have got that wrong?

  • That was not what I said in the statement. Gaddafi didn't report to Francis Musa.

  • And they have got wrong completely you going from Segbwema to Matotoka and staying there one week and then going on to Pendembu? They have got that totally wrong?

  • That was not what I said, that I was in Matotoka for a week, because I told them from Matotoka I went somewhere else before returning.

  • I am going to move on to something else. May I make it clear though, Mr Mansaray, if you want to look at any of these documents then you are more than welcome to do so, but I think you appreciate from the fact that nobody has objected that I have been quoting accurately what was recorded by the Prosecution investigators. Do you understand that?

  • Yes.

  • Right, but please say if you want to see any of these documents. Now I want to go back in time, please, first of all a little way back and then a long way back. Between May of 1997 and February of 1998, the RUF and the AFRC were in government in Sierra Leone. You agree with that?

  • Please repeat the question.

  • The junta was in power in Sierra Leone between May of '97 and February of 1998. That is right, isn't it?

  • And when ECOMOG forces threw out the junta and the AFRC and the RUF and indeed the SLA, the Sierra Leone Armed Forces, left Freetown in February 1998, they took a great deal of arms and ammunition with them, didn't they?

  • Who took the arms and ammunition?

  • The retreating members of the junta?

  • Yes, we retreated with arms and ammunition.

  • And help us with this. Were arms and ammunition stored in places other than Freetown, in other parts of the country in Sierra Leone, during the period of the junta?

  • No, we did not store arms in any other area. The area I was, I did not know whether arms were stored in any other area.

  • Right. So, you are not in a position to say whether or not there were arms stored anywhere else?

  • Well I wouldn't be able to say because I did not know about other areas, but the area where I was I was not sure.

  • Right. I want to ask you a little more, please, about your early experiences in the RUF and in particular about things that you saw or heard about happening in the RUF. You told us that at one stage quite early on you in the RUF were driven out of Sierra Leone and into Liberia and you were in the Bomi Hills area of Liberia. Do you remember telling us that?

  • Yes, I could recall.

  • And you said that at some time when you were in the Bomi Hills there was a meeting that was addressed by Foday Sankoh and also by Charles Taylor. Do you remember that?

  • Yes.

  • Now I want to suggest to you that you are wrong and that, whatever Foday Sankoh may have done in the Bomi Hills, Charles Taylor was never there in the Bomi Hills addressing you in November 1991. Do you accept that you have got that wrong?

  • I would disagree with you.

  • In November of 1991 the NPFL were fighting in Liberia, weren't they?

  • ULIMO, were they also fighting in Liberia then?

  • Yes.

  • ECOMOG, were they also in Liberia then?

  • Well, I wouldn't say because I don't know about it.

  • All right, so you don't know about ECOMOG. Do you know who was in control of Monrovia in November 1991?

  • No, I can't say.

  • Well did you not hear either when you were in the camp in the Bomi Hills who was in control of the capital, or have you not heard later since you left Liberia who was in control of the capital throughout the early 1990s?

  • Well, I don't want to lie. I did not get that sort of information.

  • Mr Mansaray, have you ever been told that Charles Taylor was able to get into Monrovia in 1990, or '91, or '92, or '93, or '94? Have you ever heard anyone suggest that the NPFL were able to move into Monrovia in the first half of the 1990s?

  • No, nobody ever told me that.

  • How did you get from the Sierra Leone border to your camp in the Bomi Hills?

  • First we crossed the Mano River through York Island. That was where we crossed.

  • And how did you physically get to the camp in the Bomi Hills?

  • Well, my visit to Bomi Hills it was just a day and I returned to Bomi.

  • What, you went on a day trip to the Bomi Hills, did you?

  • And how far is it from Tiene to the Bomi Hills?

  • It was far a little and it was my first time to make such a trip. I used a vehicle, I did not walk, but it was a far distance.

  • You used a vehicle. Does that mean you went on roads?

  • Proper paved roads?

  • The road was good the way I felt while I was in the vehicle. It was good.

  • Now, do you know where Mr Taylor was based in November 1991?

  • What I heard about where he was based, I heard about Gbarnga.

  • Yes. And do you know how you get to Bomi Hills from Gbarnga?

  • Are you aware that in order to get by road from Gbarnga to Bomi Hills you have to go into Monrovia?

  • Well I don't know, because I have not been in the area. I have not used that route yet.

  • And that the only road from Gbarnga to Bomi Hills takes you down into Monrovia, which was then controlled by the government of Liberia reinforced by ECOMOG. From what you have told us earlier, you were completely unaware of that. Is that right?

  • Yes, I did not know about the condition of the road. I said it was my first time to travel to that town. I did not know the route.

  • And are you able to tell us how far Tiene is from the Sierra Leone border? From the Mano River?

  • Well, it could be around seven to nine miles.

  • Right. So, that is on the other side of Monrovia?

  • The other side from - Gbarnga is on the eastern side and Tiene is on the western side, yes?

  • I cannot tell you now anything about the geographical location about the place, because I don't have any understanding about that.

  • Well that is my point, Mr Mansaray. There was no way that Mr Taylor could have travelled from Gbarnga in a vehicle to get himself to Bomi Hills to address a large crowd of you and your comrades, so I am suggesting you have got that completely wrong?

  • Well, I am telling you that during that muster parade I was not the only person there. There were many other RUF people. What I am saying is what happened when I saw him. That is what happened.

  • Help us with some of the names of these RUF people who you know who you say were there at this muster parade addressed by Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh in November of 1991?

  • I was there with some other RUF. I knew one senior vanguard, he was called Rambo, he was there, and some other junior RUF fighters together with whom were all together. Sorry, your Honours, together with whom were there. We were together at the place with one Mohamed Koroma. He had lived in Liberia before. I was there as well with one junior fighter. He was called Kafala. We called him Mabutu [phon]. Then the Liberian fighter whom I knew was one BZT Nya and I knew one Tom Sandy. He was also present at that parade. Then there was another NPFL fighter who was called Sando, then later I saw General One Man One.

  • And as far as you are aware, are any of these people still alive?

  • The one I met with after the disarmament was one Mohamed Koroma, but he was with the revolution right up to the disarmament. I believe that he is still alive, but I don't know for the other Liberians. The other one whom I called Kafala, he is dead now. I don't know about General One Man One, Sando, or BZT Nya, whether they are alive, I don't know.

  • Right. I want to ask you about something else now. You have told us about your time in the RUF as a fighter and then later on you become a member of the IDU, and you told us that women were taken forcefully to become the wives or taken forcefully for the purposes of sexual intercourse with the soldiers. Do you remember saying that to us?

  • Yes.

  • Did any women voluntarily become the wives of the fighters, in your experience?

  • Yes, some were willing to live with the fighters. Some were not willing.

  • I am sorry, Mr Munyard, but the question you asked was "Did any women voluntarily become ..." and that to me would suggest their initial becoming wives. The answer the witness has given was, "Some were willing to live with the fighters. Some were not willing ".

  • I see the distinction, your Honour, and I will pursue it.

  • So I am personally wondering what does this establish; that these women were not initially voluntarily captured against their will?

  • Was it your experience, Mr Mansaray, that occasionally women - some women - would align themselves with the soldiers? Would volunteer when soldiers were in the area to go and live with them as their wives?

  • I cannot tell you that, that women were coming voluntarily to be with the soldiers. The only thing I can tell you is it is after their capture some were willing to stay with the men. Some were not willing to stay with those who captured them.

  • I see. So, in response to Justice Sebutinde's question, you are saying that the only women that you were aware of who were willing to stay with men were women who had been already captured? Is that what you are saying?

  • Yes, some. After they had been captured, some would be willing and others were not.

  • Now, why was it that you went from being an IDU commander to being an IDU clerk?

  • Well, it was a change of command. If I got a command, I just had to obey it.

  • Was it a demotion?

  • So, you are saying that a clerk is the same rank as a commander?

  • In fact about the clerical job that one has more appointment than the battalion commander, because the brigade is above the battalion.

  • So, it was a promotion?

  • Yes.

  • All right. When you went to work in the mining area, did you ever see anyone executed for trying to escape from the mines?

  • That happened at many places. It happened.

  • I asked you, "Did you ever see anyone executed for trying to escape from the mines?" You yourself, did you ever see that?

  • It used to happen many times at Kaisambo mining area, Number 11 mining area.

  • No, I am not asking you if it happened. I am asking you did you ever see it happen?

  • You are quite sure of that, are you?

  • How many times do you say you personally saw people executed for trying to escape from the mines?

  • Well, this happened many times. I cannot just tell you now the exact dates, but it happened.

  • Mr Mansaray, I am not asking you for an exact date. I am asking you roughly how many times did you see people executed for trying to escape from the mines. Was it five, ten, one hundred that you saw?

  • It could be more than five times that I saw.

  • A lot more?

  • It could be above that.

  • You give us your rough estimate of how many times you saw people executed for trying to escape?

  • It could be up to ten times even.

  • So, why did you tell Prosecution investigators on 3 May 2006 that you never saw anyone executed for trying to escape from the mines?

  • Well I don't think I mentioned that, because at the beginning of my statement I told them that they were killing civilians who tried to escape.

  • Yes, you certainly told them that you heard about killings at mines, but do you remember saying to the Prosecution investigators in May of 2006 that you never saw anyone executed for trying to escape?

  • I don't think I gave them that sort of statement, because it happened. They killed civilians who attempted to escape.

  • Mr Mansaray, you know what I am asking about. I am not asking, "Did it happen?" I am asking did you see it? You know perfectly well that is what I am asking about, don't you?

  • So, don't keep telling us that it happened.

  • You can see the document if you wish to, but I will read to you what it says word for word. Again, this might take a couple of minutes. Let me read all of it to you and then I will ask you questions about it:

    "The witness was asked to clarify comments about forced mining and the punishment of those who escaped/refused to participate. He stated that during the early period of the revolution Foday Sankoh did not have total control of the fighters as many were Liberian. He only managed to gain complete control when the Liberians left. He did see people being forced to mine, but never saw anyone executed for trying to escape. He heard about killings/mutilations at mining sites, Kasambo ...", which you later corrected to Kaisambo, "... and Number 11 plant in Kono some time during the dry season in 1998".

    Now, not only did they record what you told them in May of 1996. You were asked later about what you had said in that interview and you were taken through this interview and you corrected --

  • Mr Mansaray [sic], I want to clarify the date. It says here that "you told them in May of 1996".

  • Oh, I am so sorry. I meant 2006 in the interview.

  • Excuse me, I misnamed you. I apologise.

  • Oh, I don't mind that. I would rather be corrected than have a - I don't mind. Let me start again. The interview was in May of 2006 and - well, I see Ms Alagendra on her feet.

  • Ms Alagendra, you are on your feet.

  • Yes, your Honours. I just wanted to make something clear, which is that the witness's testimony in-chief about civilians being killed who refused to mine were limited to during the time period when he was a mining commander, which was around 2001, but this paragraph seems to relate to another time period. And not only that, but he seems to be talking --

  • I am sorry to interrupt my learned friend. If she is going to give evidence about what this witness is or isn't saying, then the witness should not be in the room while that happens. That is a basic proposition of procedure in any jurisdiction, including international courts.

  • Your Honours, I am merely reading from the paragraph my learned friend is.

  • Yes, but this is something that counsel has not put. I merely referred to a date that I thought was inadvertently stated, but you are now going further and you are putting a record that the witness is allegedly - has allegedly said and that cannot be done.

  • No, your Honour, I am talking about his testimony from yesterday. That is on record.

  • Well, let me make sure. You are putting a record of interview, Mr Munyard, aren't you?

  • Yes. Counsel can be permitted to put a record of the previous statement given to the OTP. If you are saying that what was said by the witness in this Court on a previous occasion is different then that is a matter for re-examination, Ms Alagendra.

  • Your Honours, my understanding of what counsel was putting to the witness is there was - there is a contradiction between what he testified in Court yesterday and between this statement and I just wanted to --

  • Well, he is entitled to do that.

  • In fact, I am not.

  • Well, he is not and so that is fine, your Honour.

  • I am not. All I am doing is putting to him what he said today - not yesterday - and comparing it to a document from 2006.

  • [Microphone not activated].

  • And indeed if my learned friend wishes to re-examine on the point, obviously she can.

  • We have all spoken over each other, so maybe if you could re-put the question to the witness as he may have lost track of it and I am beginning to lose track of it.

  • Mr Mansaray, in May of 2006 you were interviewed by investigators from the Prosecution and you were asked to clarify certain matters that you had told the Prosecution about in earlier interviews. You had been interviewed by then some three times before you were asked to clarify points in May of 2006. Do you remember being asked in May of 2006 to go back over some of the answers - some of the material that you had given to the Prosecution in previous interviews?

  • Yes, I can recall.

  • No-one will expect you to remember the precise date, although in fact in your case you might remember the precise date, but at some time in the middle of 2006 you were being asked to clarify matters that you had previously talked about. You had previously talked about forced mining and the punishment of those who escaped or refused to participate and we will go back to the previous information that you had given the Prosecution about forced mining and the punishment of those who refused to participate in it in due course, but when you were asked about it again, this time in May 2006, it is recorded that you told the Prosecutors that you did see people being forced to mine, but you never saw anyone executed for trying to escape. You also went on to say that you heard about killings and mutilations at mining sites, Kaisamba and Number 11 plant in Kono, some time during the dry season in 1998. Now you were being asked in that interview in May of 2006 about the question of forced mining generally, weren't you? You were being asked - I will put it to you another way?

  • Yes, they asked me about that.

  • Yes. You weren't being asked in May of 2006, "Tell us what you know about forced mining in 1998 only", were you?

  • By "yes" you are agreeing with me that you were asked generally and not just about one month?

  • Your Honours, it is not clear whether that is what the witness meant by "yes".

  • No, I am trying to clarify that now.

  • [Microphone not activated].

  • Well, let us start again:

  • You have agreed with me already that you were being asked about forced mining generally, yes? You have already answered yes to that and so we can move on from there. When you were telling them in May of 2006 about forced mining and killings, you were being asked about the whole of your experience of forced mining, weren't you?

  • Yes, they asked me about the mining, how it was going on.

  • You knew about mining - forced mining - both from your time in the IDU and from your time as a mining commander, didn't you?

  • Yes, I knew about mining activities that were taking place during the RUF time.

  • And they were asking you about the whole of your experience of forced mining during the RUF time, weren't they?

  • Yes, I can remember during - I can remember the mining activities that took place during the RUF time.

  • Mr Munyard, obviously you were misunderstood. I don't think that is what you asked.

  • No, it wasn't. I am afraid I will just have to keep trying:

  • Let us take it in stages, please. In 2003 and in 2004, and in January of 2006, you had been interviewed by Prosecution investigators, hadn't you?

  • I am going to have to turn to those parts of those interviews where you dealt with forced mining, so that we can understand what you were being asked to clarify in May of 2006 and I am sorry to have to do this, but it seems to be the only way to make the point clear. If you will bear with me for a moment I will just get my references to the issue in the first three interviews. I think in the first interview you dealt mainly with people being made to work on farms. In the second interview you were asked again about people working on farms and you were also asked about mining.

  • Your Honours, he was also asked about mining in the first interviews.

  • I am grateful to my learned friend. I have obviously missed that one, but I hadn't intended to undertake this exercise at all and I wonder if my learned friend would like to tell me where in the first interview so we can deal with it.

  • Is that an invitation, or an application?

  • Oh, at this stage it is purely an invitation.

  • I will leave it up to counsel.

  • Otherwise it will take me about ten minutes to find it.

  • No, your Honours, I wouldn't want to take up that invitation. Thank you.

  • I did mention earlier that I am deaf and even with the earphones I am afraid I didn't hear that. Am I being told what page it is?

  • No, I said I wasn't taking you up on the invitation.

  • All right. I can come back to that, I am afraid after lunch, because at the rate we are going we are still going to be on this subject unhappily. I will deal with the second interview:

  • You are asked in the second interview about mining and you are asked about people that were brought in and forced to mine, and I will read the questions and answers about forced mining. I am afraid they are quite lengthy in the second interview. You were asked in the second interview about the year 2000, Mr Mansaray:

    "Q. Let us talk about the year 2000. Well, actually you

    said there was mining going on and that Colonel Amara

    Peleto was in charge of mining in Koindu?

    A. Yes."

    You corrected Koindu to Koidu in a later correction interview that we haven't even touched on yet. The next question is:

    "Q. The mining was carried out for the RUF by Peleto. He

    handed over proceeds to Issa. You said Issa Sesay was

    staying in a place called Lebanon?

    A. Yes, yes."

    Then you deal with diamonds being handed over from Peleto to Sesay and the next question is:

    "Q. How about those that were brought in and forced to

    mine? Do you know anything about the people that were

    brought to the mines and forced to mine diamonds for the

    RUF?

    A. Oh yes, in fact the whole people that were staying with

    us in Kono, they were forced to mine for the RUF, the

    majority I can say, and they are producing a lot of

    diamonds to Peleto and Peleto used to hand over the

    diamonds to Issa Sesay."

    Then you were asked, "So how was the first mining going on? Were there armed men standing around maintaining guard over these people that had been brought to mine the diamonds?" You answer, "Yes, like Number 11, which was the main mining base, that was well fortified by armed men." May I make it clear at this point, in order to speed up I am going to miss out irrelevant material and just concentrate on killings:

    "Q. If anyone refused to take part in the forced mining

    what happened to them?

    A. He would be executed.

    Q. Do you know of any individual who was executed for

    failing to, or refusing to mine for the RUF?

    A. Well, really Peleto, before I ever came to stay in

    Koidu Town, I heard about this information. By then I was

    still in Makeni. He used to kill people.

    Q. Which year was this?

    A. That was the year 2000.

    Q. 2000?

    A. Yes, he used to do it. He used to harass people. He

    used to torture them.

    Q. People who refused to mine?

    A. For the RUF."

    And then:

    "Q. How about those who stole diamonds, if you sneak

    with a piece of diamond and then you are caught?

    A. If you are caught, no mercy, you will die.

    Q. You will die, okay, and do you know of any specific

    person who lost his life in this way?

    A. Well, I know some people, but I cannot remember their

    particular names.

    Q. Their names?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Can you mention the instances, the places where these

    executions took place?

    A. Like Kasabo Terrace."

    You have corrected that, in a later interview, to Kaisambo Terrace and you identified where that is. Then you say:

    "A. Amara Peleto used to play some havoc to people which

    were not good.

    Q. Like what?

    A. Like killing them, torturing them and doing any other

    punishments to them.

    Q. Because they failed to mine?

    A. To mine for the RUF and then some planned to escape

    with diamonds, so a lot of these reports came in."

    Then you deal with reports.

    "A. Also to those who were customers to buy diamonds, we

    called them jewellers, Amara Peleto used to threaten them

    and also Issa Sesay was having one notorious man who he

    used to send to these jeweller men to go and harass them to

    take their money, to take their diamonds from, by the name

    of one Sahr Quee."

    Then I think it is right we then move off that whole area. Now, that is the second interview. You were not saying in that second interview, Mr Mansaray, that you personally saw people executed, were you?

  • It is now that I am getting your question clearly. I thought you had asked if I knew where they were killing the people. I understood that they were killing people, but the way you have read it from my statement, that was what happened exactly. They were killing people.

  • Can I try and short cut it completely. This is right, isn't it: You heard about them killing people, both before and while you were a mining commander, but you never actually saw any executions yourself? Am I right to put it in that way?

  • Yes, you are right.

  • Thank you. You have just saved us a good half-hour of Court time with that answer. When you were asked in May of 2006 to clarify what you were saying about forced mining and executions, you made it plain that although you had heard about these you had never actually seen any yourself. Do you agree?

  • I would like you to tell me the year you are talking about.

  • On 3 May in 2006 you were asked to clarify comments, about forced mining and the punishment of those who refused to mine, in your previous interviews. Mr Mansaray, do you agree that in your previous interviews you had talked about what you had heard before you were a mining commander and also what you had seen both before you were a mining commander and when you were a mining commander?

  • The time I became a mining commander people lost their lives. I myself was there, but when I was not a mining commander, I only got the information that people died.

  • When you were a mining commander you didn't ever see anyone executed for trying to escape, did you?

  • I saw them kill people when they attempted to escape.

  • So, why in 2006 did you tell the investigators that you did see people being forced to mine, but never saw anyone executed for trying to escape? Why did you tell the investigators that?

  • Well, you know it could be a mistake, but at the time when I was a mining commander I saw people - I saw people losing their lives. People were killed.

  • So you are saying that you made a mistake, are you, when you told the investigators, many years later, that you had never seen anyone executed even though you had heard about it? Are you saying it is your mistake in 2006?

  • Yes, at that time when I was working as a mining commander, when they interviewed me and I did not tell them that I did not see people being killed, it was a mistake, because human beings can make mistakes.

  • You had forgot in 2006, had you, that you had seen people being executed for refusing to mine? Is that what you are telling this Court?

  • Mr Mansaray, that is completely untrue, isn't it, that you forgot, when they asked you specifically in May of 2006 to clarify what you had previously told them about people being killed for not mining, you forgot to tell them that you had seen people being executed for refusing to mine?

  • Yes, I forgot to mention that, but I used to tell them that people lost their lives, either because they attempted to escape, or they refused to work, but I forgot to mention that.

  • Do you understand that you were not being asked just to tell a story in 2006. You were being asked specifically to explain what you meant when you had previously told the Prosecution about people being killed for refusing to mine? Do you understand that is what you were being asked in 2006, "Tell us what you mean when you say people were killed for refusing to mine"?

  • Well, this morning I explained that even the area where I was working, that they were killing people and when I came I met dead people and even in my presence it happened. People lost their lives. That was what I was trying to tell you.

  • How can you remember that in 2008, but two years ago completely forget - not just forget to tell them, but actually tell the investigators, "I never saw anyone executed for trying to escape"? You see you didn't forget, Mr Mansaray. You were asked a question that led to you saying, "I never saw anyone executed for trying to escape."

  • I don't think I told them that, because I told them that people lost their lives while they were attempting to escape. I told them that, but it was not put to me clearly as you have done now. But they asked me if people lost their lives while attempting to escape from the mining and I responded "yes".

  • Let us return to it after the lunch break.

  • Thank you, Mr Munyard. If that is a convenient point we will take the adjournment. Mr Witness, we are now going to adjourn for lunchtime. We will resume at 2.30. Please adjourn Court.

  • [Lunch break taken at 1.30 p.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 2.30 p.m.]

  • Just before we recommence I notice Mr Werner is not at the Prosecution bar, Ms Alagendra.

  • That's correct, your Honour.

  • I will note that appearance accordingly. Mr Munyard, if you're ready to proceed, please.

  • Thank you, Madam President:

  • Mr Mansaray, I'm going to go through the various occasions when you have mentioned forced mining and the consequences of refusing to mine and may I start by pointing out that I was correct when I said there was nothing in the first interview about forced mining which indeed is why I had no note about it. There is in the first interview on pages 23 to 24 some - you did give the Prosecution some information about diamond mining activity but you don't mention forced mining there, you just talk about mining being carried out and who the diamonds were handed to, but you do not mention forced mining as far as I can see on those pages. I will obviously be corrected if I'm wrong.

    In your second interview which took place in March of 2004 you do mention people being forced to mine and this is what you said - and again I'm missing out anything that is irrelevant or indeed anything I've already dealt with this morning. So I will summarise. I think I've dealt with this one this morning, I don't want to waste time over it. But, Mr Mansaray, in your second interview you talked about people being brought in and forced to mine, you talked about the mining base being fortified by armed men and that anyone who refused to partake in the forced mining would be executed and you were asked: "Do you know of any individual who was executed?" You said, "I heard about this information. Peleto, he used to kill people in the year 2000". You go on to say, "If you are caught, no mercy, you will die", followed by a question, "You will die, okay. Do you know of any specific person who lost his life in this way?" You say, "Well, I know some people but I can't remember their particular names" and at the end of that passage you say, "Amara Peleto used to play some havoc to people which were not good, like killing and torturing them and doing any other punishments to them" and you are asked, "Because they failed to mine?" You say, "To mine for the RUF and then some planned to escape with diamond so a lot of these reports came in". In other words you got reports of that but you didn't ever claim in that second interview that you had seen anyone executed.

    In the third interview which is now January of 2006 you said:

    "Forced mining was going on in Kailahun District. Patrick Bangura was appointed by Sam Bockarie to be mining commander there. I went there one time in 1998 and saw civilians working there. I spoke with Patrick Bangura and he told me the civilians were not paid for that work".

    You mention mining going at Jojoima and that's all you say about that in the third interview.

    The fourth interview is where you are then asked - paragraph 13 you were asked the passage that I started off this line of cross-examination with this morning and I'm not going to read it all over again, but you are asked in paragraph 13 to clarify comments about forced mining and the punishment of those who escaped or refused to participate. In other words you're asked to clarify those passages I've just read to you and you say: "He did see people being forced to mine but never saw anyone executed for trying to escape. He heard about killings and mutilations at mining sites" and you give an example, or you give two examples, and indeed in October of 2007 you're taken back to that passage and you correct the spelling of one of the places.

    Then for the sake of completeness we will look at the other interviews where you talked about forced mining in October of 2007 and I'll get you the exact date. On 15 October 2007 you're again - you're in something called a prepping interview or prepping session and it says this: "Witness was asked about his involvement in diamond mining in Kono between 1998 and 2000". Now between 1998 and 2000 you were still in the IDU, weren't you?

  • Yes.

  • "Witness clarified the following", you were appointed to work with Peleto after the UN peacekeepers were released around June 2000, you were assigned at Ngaiya section in Yengema Town in Kono as a mining commander. "Witness confirmed everything he said about diamond mining in Kono on his previous". I'm actually reading accurately from the statement even though the grammar is bad. Now that presumably means in his previous statements and we know that you mentioned Kono - yes, you mentioned Kono in that paragraph 13 of the interview on 3 May 2006 when you said you'd never seen any anyone executed.

    You then provide further information about mining activities in Kono 1998 to 2000 and you clarified that you saw Sahr Quee who worked for Issa Sesay at Ngaiya beating civilians, Fullah men and put them under gunpoint and took their money and you say Peleto more than many times going to Ngaiya, arresting civilians, placing them in vehicles and taking them to mining sites at No. 11 Plant in Koidu.

  • Your Honours, can I just clarify what statement my learned friend is reading from. He's referred to two statements now, 2006 and