The transcripts of the trial of Charles Taylor, former President of Liberia. More…

  • Your Honour, just as a house-keeping matter, order of business, I believe I failed to mark a document which was the report from the web page Wiki Sierra Leone about the NPRC junta and I'd ask that that be marked next in order.

  • Was that the only document that you sought to mark?

  • There are several others but I'm still dealing with those, so I'll wait a moment to mark those.

  • That should be the report entitled "NPRC junta, Sierra Leone Wiki, Sierra Leone" consisting of two pages. That is marked MFI-10.

  • Thank you. Now I would ask that the Court Officer bring back to the witness the document, the Security Council report S/2002/267.

  • Mr Kolleh, if you recall yesterday I read from the Security Council report S/2001/1195, that was dated 13 December 2001, and I read to you about how in November Issa Sesay ordered a stop to disarmament in Kailahun. That document indicated that it was being resumed and it was expected to be completed in December, mid-December. If we actually look at S/2002/267, paragraph 2, it the second sentence says: "The disarmament of combatants of the RUF and the CDF was completed on 11 January." Is that correct, Mr Kolleh, that the disarmament was not completed until 11 January?

  • Mr Kolleh, did you understand the question?

  • No.

  • Sir, disarmament in Kailahun was not completed until the beginning of January 2002, correct?

  • Mr Kolleh, what is the problem?

  • No, you were asked a question. The reading is long finished.

  • Yes, please repeat your question.

  • Sir, yesterday we read how Issa Sesay ordered a stop to disarmament in November and after further negotiations with the UN it was resumed. Do you recall that happening, that Issa Sesay ordered a stop to disarmament in November?

  • Yes.

  • And this sentence I just read to you said the actual process was completed 11 January 2002. Does that sound correct to you?

  • I don't remember the main date but it was stopped for some time.

  • Okay. Now I want to ask you about another document and if the witness - if I could have distributed another document, Security Council report S/2001/228. And while that's being done, I will just notify the Court Officer that I will also be using P-590.

    Sir, S/2001/228, dated 14 March 2001, is the ninth report of the Secretary-General of the UN mission in Sierra Leone. And what I'm interested in is on page 2, paragraph 6. Yesterday we had some discussion about how many arms from UNAMSIL were returned, the percentages, et cetera.

    Mr Kolleh, about 500 UN soldiers were captured in those events in May 2000 by the RUF. Isn't that correct?

  • I'm not aware of that number.

  • What we see in paragraph 6 - well, do you recall a whole - I believe it was battalion, 300 Zambians being captured alone on their way to Makeni, a company I guess that was of Zambians being captured on the way to Makeni?

  • I was not there. There was an attack that took place but I was not there. I can't tell you whether they were Zambian or which nationalities.

  • Mr Kolleh, didn't you play a role in transporting these captives. Part of your assignment was to take them from one place to another. Isn't that right?

  • I was at Manowa, yes, they passed through Manowa.

  • And you took them to where?

  • They were only crossing to Manowa towards Pendembu.

  • Did you take them to Liberia?

  • No, I was at Manowa.

  • So you had nothing to do with it, you never escorted them. Is that what you're saying?

  • My question perhaps wasn't clear. Did you have anything to do with the transportation of the hostages?

  • Mr Kolleh, in paragraph 6, this is dated 14 March 2001, it indicates:

    "So far the RUF have returned to UNAMSIL 56 personal weapons, 10 vehicles and 20 armoured personnel carriers which were part of the weapons and equipment seized by RUF from UNAMSIL contingents last year. However, these vehicles and armoured personnel carries had been completely stripped of weapons and equipment and were not in a useable condition."

    Now, Mr Sesay, you told us yesterday about the difficulty of crossing the river with a very heavy armoured vehicle, correct?

  • I am not Mr Sesay, please.

  • Sorry, thank you, sir. I apologise. Mr Kolleh. You told us during your testimony over the last few days about the difficulty in crossing a river with a heavy armoured vehicle, correct?

  • This indicates that the weapons were stripped off the vehicle. So when you take weapons, like heavy calibre machine guns and canon off a vehicle, then they can be transported across the river. Isn't that true?

  • No.

  • I am not aware of any weapon coming to cross the ferry area because those are heavy weapon you talk about. Canoe cannot take those weapon.

  • Sir, weapons were stripped off the vehicles on the orders of Issa Sesay. Isn't that right?

  • Well, I'll come to it and read to you the testimony of a witness who talked about that. Why do you say a large calibre machine gun can't be taken across the river?

  • It's not possible. It cannot fit in the canoe. It's very heavy.

  • Sir, there were more than canoes and you can float with drums and objects. An object floats if it displaces more water than the weight of what it is carrying. Isn't that true?

  • I am not aware of that. No, sir.

  • And if you put enough empty drums, you can float the weight that's equal to the water displaced. Isn't that true?

  • I did not use drum. I don't know how to use the drum. I know of canoe.

  • Mr Witness, are you saying that the only method you had of getting objects from one side of the river to another was a canoe?

  • What I know of is the canoe.

  • You mean to say an army in the field could not get anything across a river except by canoe?

  • Yes, except by canoe.

  • Did you not tell us on Monday, Mr Witness, I may be mistaken, but did you not say in your evidence that sometimes you would make a raft from pieces of wood and tie drums on either side to get things across?

  • Yes, but I did not use it to cross weapon. I used canoe. Canoe was what usually I - when I was to Manowa I used canoe.

  • Mr Witness, the question that His Lordship asked was not what you used. He was asking, and I also am asking, about means of getting across the river. Not your means, but any means of getting across the river.

  • Yes, a drum, you could tie drum together to make a cross if the canoe was maybe destroyed or it was not possible to cross, somebody could use drum. But I did use a drum when I was at Manowa.

  • Mr Witness, the last Defence witness who testified here, finishing early September, 008, talked about ammunition being sent in vehicles to the RUF. Are you saying a vehicle could not cross from Liberia into Kailahun District?

  • And, sir, witnesses have talked about trucks arriving, including Issa Sesay, talked about a truck coming from Lofa County. Are you saying that that's an impossibility?

  • It was not possible, sir.

  • If the witness could be shown S-590, please.

  • S-590 is the 11th report of the Secretary-General of the UN mission in Sierra Leone, dated - it's S/2001/857, dated 7 September 2001.

  • Do we have that, Mr Koumjian?

  • Yes, it came in during the testimony of Issa Sesay.

  • Could counsel please indicate the exhibit number, if it's an exhibit.

  • I apologise. I thought I sent an email last night. S-590.

  • That is not an exhibit number.

  • Excuse me. I'm reading a P, and I'm saying S. P-590. S/2001/857, P-590.

  • Sir, I'm reading from paragraph 7. If I could just have one moment. In paragraph 7 it indicates:

    "However, RUF has yet to return all the weapons and equipment seized from UNAMSIL and the monitoring group (ECOMOG) of the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS). No further items have been returned since the issuance of my last report. While the RUF leadership has indicated that they expected most of the rifles and other weapons to turn up during the disarmament exercise, so far only 31 UNAMSIL weapons and 148 ECOMOG weapons have been recovered during the disarmament process."

    Well, sir, you said you were in charge of collecting the weapons in Kailahun during the disarmament. Nothing like 500 personal weapons were recovered by the RUF and turned over during that disarmament, were they?

  • I am not aware of UNAMSIL weapon capture by the RUF in Kailahun that I was in possession of and did not return.

  • Sir, first of all, you're not going to tell us, are you, that you're not aware that the RUF seized in May 2000 about 500 peacekeepers Zambians, Kenyans, UN military observers, in addition to the group that Martin George captured, the Indians in Kailahun. You know about all of that, don't you?

  • Please be specific with your question. If you talk about Makeni I was not there, I cannot give you updates. If you talk about Kailahun also I was not there. Martin George could best answer that question or Issa Sesay could best answer the question pertaining to Makeni events. I tell you of disarmament when I took over Martin George from Kailahun.

  • Mr Kolleh, you've told us at times that you were a senior officer of the RUF, so are you saying now you aren't aware - you never heard about the capture of these peacekeepers around Makeni?

  • By your being senior officer does not mean that you have to know everything to every point. Your being senior officer, you were deployed to a specific area. So being senior officer is not a crime that you should know everything or you are not forced to know everything.

  • Mr George, you're not answering my question.

  • Mr Kolleh, I apologise. You were not answering my question. My question is: Did you know about the capture of peacekeepers in Makeni? Are you saying that you did not know about the capture of the peacekeepers in 2000, May 2000?

  • I told you I heard of it but I don't know how it happened, the total number, I don't know. Weapons captured I can't tell you but I heard of attack in Makeni. I kept telling you this.

  • So, Mr George, how many people did you hear were captured --

  • Mr Witness, I'm going to switch to that. Mr Witness, how many persons did UNAMSIL or ECOMOG - were captured, as far as you knew?

  • If you are talking about ECOMOG, you're talking about UNAMSIL.

  • I'm talking about both, in total.

  • Now, you said you didn't know anything about the stripping of weapons from vehicles.

    Could we have the transcript, please, of 13 April 2010, page 38783.

    Explain to us again what exactly was your assignment in May 2000. When the peacekeepers were captured, when Foday Sankoh's house was attacked in Freetown, Spur Road, what was your assignment?

  • By that time I was around Bunumbu. From there I came to Manowa. I was not assigned by that time yet and Martin George was in Kailahun. By that time I was not yet assigned. I was an officer, but I was not under specific assignment. After which before I took over from Martin George from Kailahun.

  • You're saying that in May 2000, before taking Martin George's position, you were a senior officer but you had no assignment? Is that what you're telling us?

  • Before that happened, yes.

  • So you could just do whatever you wanted to do?

  • Once we were not fighting war and we were at peace by that time, you could move around. When war was going on you don't just move on your own.

  • It just raises one question in my mind, Mr Kolleh. You were captured, forced to train with the RUF, brought out of fear to bring this war to Sierra Leone. So here you are in May 2000, you've got no assignment, why didn't you go back to your own country?

  • I could not go back. I was still with the RUF. I could not go back.

  • We were still with the RUF. I could not go back.

  • Because if you cross the border you're in Liberia. Charles Taylor was President in control of the country and you knew that you were in Liberia, an RUF deserter, you would be in danger of being arrested and turned over and killed just like Fonti Kanu was. Isn't that true?

  • No, I was still with the RUF. I could not go.

  • So with no assignment, nothing to do, you never went back to Liberia. Now let's go and read the transcript of 13 April, please, page 38783, line 15 please. The witness was asked; this is Charles Ngebeh:

    "Q. In May 2000 you took part in the attacks against the

    United Nations peacekeepers.

    A. No.

    Q. And the heavy weapons that were taken from the United

    Nations peacekeepers were handed over to you, weren't they?

    A. You are correct. All the 17 armoured cars here parked

    in my compound, you are right. Because I was the arms

    specialist.

    Q. And you removed some of the weapons that were mounted

    on those armoured cars and put them on RUF pick-up trucks.

    Isn't that right?

    A. You are correct. That was what I did.

    Q. And you were aware that these weapons had come from the

    capture of the United Nations peacekeepers, weren't you.

    A. Yes. But it was an instruction from Issa, and what

    could I have done except that I accept the instruction from

    him?"

    So as being the person in charge of the disarmament in Kailahun you must have known, Mr Witness, that the armoured vehicles that were being turned over had been stripped of the equipment. You knew that, didn't you.

  • No.

  • Where did those weapons go to that Charles Ngebeh stripped from the vehicles?

  • They went to Liberia, to the armed forces of Liberia. Isn't that true?

  • Sir, in March of 1999 - well, I believe now I can ask to have these UN Security Council reports marked for identification. I presented three new reports. The last one that I just used, and perhaps we can do them in chronological order and it may make sense to mark them A, B, C, S/2001/228 and I referred to page 2, then S/2001/1195, I referred to page 1.

  • I think it was page 3.

  • Thank you, page 3. And then S/2002/267, I referred to page 1 this morning and yesterday I referred to page 3.

  • That is correct. I'm going to admit the - rather to mark, to mark them as follows: The ninth report of the Secretary-General on UNAMSIL dated 14 March 2001, that's pages 1 - that's the cover page of course and page 2, and secondly the twelfth report of the Secretary-General on UNAMSIL, 13 December 2001, it's the cover page 1 and page 3, and thirdly the thirteenth report of the Secretary-General on UNAMSIL, 14 March 2002, pages 1 and 3, those will be marked MFI-11A, B and C respectively.

  • Now, Mr Witness, I'd like you to explain a bit of your prior testimony. If we could have the transcript of 1 November?

  • I'm sorry, Mr Koumjian, before we leave these documents, I want to understand better your testimony, Mr Kolleh. If we look at the Security Council report S/2001/1195, at the back, the last page, Mr Kolleh.

  • Do you see the map over there, the last page?

  • I'm not seeing anything before me. I am not seeing anything here.

  • Madam Court Manager, if we could just put this document before the witness, please.

  • Maybe you can show him the map. You said that it was impossible to take arms from Pendembu or Kailahun to Liberia and you said that there were military observers and all this UN personnel deployed across the border. When you see the right of the map you see the Pakistani contingent, you see all over. Is your testimony you cannot take weapons across the border because there were all these military personnel there, or because of the mode of transportation? Do you see the map.

  • I am seeing the map, sir.

  • Okay. On your right when we look at the legend you have these Pakistani contingents. Are you saying that because of the presence of these military personnel you couldn't take arms across the border?

  • Exactly so.

  • Thank you so much.

  • Mr Witness, why didn't you say that before instead of saying that you could not move heavy equipment except in a canoe?

  • He's not asking me that. Manowa Ferry, he's not asking me about river. He's asking me in my controlled area he's showing me a border with Liberia, asking if I could not go to Liberia with weapon because of the presence of these people. That's what I say yes. And I have the pager for the MILOBs commander that worked with me to disarm in Kailahun. Adams is here on the photo. It was impossible. These people were monitoring all over.

  • You were asked, "Why do you say a large calibre machine gun can't be taken across the river?" Now, listen to me. Your answer was not that we were prevented by the Pakistanis. Your answer was it's not possible, it cannot fit in the canoe, it's very heavy. You made no mention of Pakistani troops stopping you. Now why all of a sudden do you come up with this answer that it was the Pakistanis and not the canoes?

  • Excuse me, sir. I am not talking about Pakistani or this, he's asking me in Kailahun, he's showing me the borderline with Liberia, the first question posted to me was crossing arms from Kono that have been captured from UNAMSIL to be transported to Liberia. I said it was impossible from their evidence that they received - that I received and cross, we were talking about crossing, this time round I'm talk about in Kailahun, he's showing me the boundary with Liberia. Those are two separate questions that have been posted to me, sir.

  • I don't know what you're talking about and perhaps your counsel can straighten this out on re-examination, but for now you carry on, Mr Koumjian.

  • If he can come back to his question maybe you will get what I'm saying. He's particularly talking about Kailahun.

  • You're under cross-examination. Go ahead, Mr Koumjian.

  • Mr Kolleh, you make one point that's pretty clear. It's a lot easier to spot an armoured vehicle crossing the border than weapons that have been stripped off the vehicle, radio equipment that's been hidden in rice bags and behind other consumer goods. Isn't that true?

  • And again, Mr Kolleh, are there bridges between Sierra Leone and Liberia?

  • Well, you told us about bridges. You told us about the Bo Waterside bridge on two occasions?

  • I am talking about between Sierra Leone and Liberia to where I can controlled during disarmament. But earlier I told you in my first day of information I told you that there's a wire bridge between Liberia and Sierra Leone in the Pujehun District. I told you earlier.

  • So vehicles can be driven over the bridge from Sierra Leone --

  • In the Pujehun District, yes.

  • Mr Witness, where were you in March 1999, a couple of months after the Freetown invasion? Where were you assigned?

  • I was in Manowa.

  • Did you go anywhere else? Were you going to Makeni and other places?

  • I went Makeni before.

  • When did you go to Makeni?

  • I went to Makeni by instruction from Issa, Issa Sesay, to Morris Kallon.

  • What was the instruction you got from Issa Sesay?

  • I should carry heavy weapon to Morris Kallon.

  • So basically, you were instructed, in March 1999, to bring the heavy weapons because of the conflict at that time between Kallon and Sesay, on one side, and Superman and Massaquoi, on the other, correct?

  • So you didn't just stay in Kailahun. You were at a battlefront with a heavy weapon, correct?

  • I was asked from Manowa to escort the weapon from Bunumbu to Issa's location. When I arrived there he told me, "Please give this weapon to Kallon, he's in the siege." That's how I carried and hand it over to him.

  • Could the witness be shown P-515, please.

  • Mr Witness, I want to take advantage of your expertise in heavy weapons and ask you about this photograph. First of all, perhaps you could take it and look at it in your hands. Do you recognise that kind of weapon?

  • Yes.

  • This is one barrel AA.

  • Is this the kind of weapon that the ECOMOG had, UNAMSIL, excuse me, or the ECOMOG? Did ECOMOG or UNAMSIL have this kind of weapon?

  • I don't remember. We had this, this type of weapon, sir, this type.

  • Okay. And I don't know if you took a good look at the person manning the gun. Perhaps you want to look again at that.

  • Take the photograph in your hand again --

  • I don't remember anybody.

  • Well, you say that without looking.

  • I don't remember.

  • Sir, remember you mentioned in your testimony and you spelled out a name, Nyallay. Now, I think you may have actually used the wrong name at that time, but there was a Nyallay who was a bodyguard for Morris Kallon, correct?

  • I did not know Nyallay as bodyguard to Morris Kallon.

  • Well, the person you were talking about was Nya, a radio commander, correct?

  • I said CO Nyan, a radio operator.

  • He was a Liberian, correct, that you're talking about?

  • He had been with the NPFL, joined the RUF earlier on?

  • I did not know him before.

  • Mr Witness, what did you call him, CO what?

  • Could you spell that.

  • Well, I believe earlier in your testimony you spelled it Nyallay, N-Y-A-L-L-A-Y.

  • Nyallay was - this Nyallay was a Sierra Leonean, I said Nyallay, Nyallay is different from Nyan.

  • I think the witness is right. He did spell it this way before in the end.

  • Sir, this Sierra Leonean in Nyan, who was he?

  • He was a radio operator.

  • I want to make sure we're not confusing because I know my pronunciation is not great. You talked about a Liberian. The Liberian was the radio operator that you're talking about just now, correct?

  • We had Nyallay and Nyan. Nyan was a Liberian, he was a Liberian and he was a radio operator.

  • And Nyallay, what was his assignment?

  • Nyallay was a radio operator too.

  • Sir, most of Charles Taylor's ATU at the end of the war were Sierra Leoneans. Isn't that true?

  • I can't tell, I was not there because most Sierra Leonean were in Liberia, so I can't tell whether they were actually composed of Sierra Leonean, but a lot of Sierra Leoneans in Liberia, they live there before.

  • A lot of RUF were put into Charles Taylor's ATU after Bockarie left. Isn't that true?

  • I can't tell. I did not go with Sam Bockarie.

  • Mr Witness, the RUF - you talked a little bit about fighting in Guinea. I believe you said Matthew Barbue led troops into Guinea in an attack, correct?

  • Yes.

  • The truth is that the RUF combined forces with the Armed Forces of Liberia at that time to attack Guinea. Isn't that true?

  • No, I know of RUF attack into Guinea and again firing too was from the Liberian side to Guinea, but we did not actually go to sit to combine to fight. I'm not aware of that.

  • You're not aware that they combined forces, the RUF and the AFL?

  • No, they were not directly combined, but I know - I'm aware, sorry, of attack in Guinea by the RUF.

  • And you're also - aren't you also aware that the RUF, following Taylor's orders, fought first Mosquito Spray and then LURD rebels in Lofa County in Liberia? That happened, didn't it?

  • No, sir.

  • Well, I want to read to you some bits of testimony. I hope to go through this quickly. I'm not going to read to you every bit of testimony we've had on this, but let's start with 6 February 2008, page 3273.

  • Mr Koumjian, I'm looking at that answer that the witness gave to the question whether the RUF forces and the Armed Forces of Liberia combined to attack Guinea. His answer was: "No, they were not directly combined, but I know - I'm aware of attack in Guinea by the RUF." And then you asked him again: "And you're also aware that the RUF, following Taylor's orders, fought first Mosquito Spray and then the LURD rebels in Lofa County?" And he said: "No, sir."

    Now, when he said they were not directly combined, does that mean there's a possibility that they were indirectly combined?

  • No, sir, we were not combined. We fought enemies in Guinea, RUF in particular. But he's asking whether we had a combined - we were combined. I said no.

  • Did you have - were you fighting a common enemy, that is, the RUF and the AFL, were they fighting a common enemy in Guinea, do you know?

  • Yes, I believe, because for the RUF we attack Guinea, ma'am, but we were not under instruction from Liberia leader or Liberia leader giving instruction go and do this, no, sir, but we fought in Guinea. We fought the CDF and the Guinean forces.

  • And as far as you're aware, the AFL were fighting who in Guinea?

  • They were fighting in Guinea. They were fighting their own enemies. They were fighting in Guinea, ma'am.

  • Okay, please proceed, Mr Koumjian.

  • Mr Witness, I just want to ask you about something in your answer to the Presiding Judge's question. She asked you if you knew whether when you said indirectly - that they were not combining forces directly, did they combine forces indirectly and you gave your answer, and just like you're doing right now, you put your head down, and you began your answer with your head down, shaking your head. Mr Witness, where you come from, is it known that when people lie they look away, they look down?

  • When you talk to me I have to listen to your question carefully. Perhaps I have to take time to understand what you are saying to me. You don't just pose question and just answer you because I have to take time to understand what you said. I am not putting my head down to shake it. Sometime I begin to shake my head no, no, before I come to your answer.

  • Mr Witness, I'm asking you about your answers.

  • Where you close your eyes or you look down at your feet. Not when you're listening to the question. When you begin your answers. Is that a habit you have when you're under stress because you're lying?

  • Let me read first from 6 February, page 3273. And towards the bottom of the page, about line 15. Thank you, line 17, I'll begin there. The witness said:

    "A. Okay, sorry, let me make that area clear. After the

    UN invasion Bockarie was not in Sierra Leone. It was

    during Issa's command. Issa used to send manpower. And

    before Bockarie left, Bockarie used to send manpower to go

    and fight in Lofa. Lofa is an area that joins Sierra

    Leone. This was an instruction from Mr Taylor."

    By the way, Mr Witness, this is from a radio operator, King Perry Kamara. You would agree that the strength of the RUF was the radio operations, correct?

  • For the RUF, yes.

  • And the people that know, have access to most of the information about operations are the radio operators, correct?

  • And even you claim what you know about the Freetown invasion you heard over the radio, correct?

  • Yes.

  • So let's go on with his testimony. Skipping down a few lines to the bottom of the page, the last three lines:

    "And later again Taylor called for RUF senior officers' meeting in Monrovia. He requested for a mission that was to go and attack Guinea by Sierra Leone and also attack Guinea's position by Liberia, Lofa County." He was asked another question about when it was and he said it was in '99. He was asked when Bockarie sent forces to go and fight inside Liberia and he answered it was in 1999. "It was in '99. That was when we had returned from Freetown, our fighting had quelled down a little. That was the time. Because immediately after our men had withdrawn from Freetown we were not fighting any more. So our troops were going to fight in Liberia. That was under Sam Bockarie's administration."

    And then he was asked:

    "Q. And when was it that Issa Sesay was asked to raise

    manpower to help fighting inside Guinea?

    A. That was the time when Issa Sesay was now the RUF

    commander, and this was the time we had arrested and taken

    away the UNAMSIL or United Nations weapon and ULIMO started

    attacking Taylor from the border, so he requested for

    Mr Sesay, so that Issa Sesay would send troops there

    because of the route Issa Sesay would use to Liberia so

    that that route should not be blocked. That went on until

    the time he called again for a meeting to organise and

    attack the Guinea position. Mr Taylor called this

    meeting."

    Now, I'm going to go to another date. If we could have 23rd January 2008, please. This is the testimony of Abu Keita, page 2047.

    While that's coming up on the screen, Mr Kolleh, did you take - the RUF, did you take the 500 peacekeepers to Liberia by canoe? Did they swim across the river? How did they get across the river?

  • We transport them by the canoe from the Manowa Ferry.

  • Okay, I believe it's up. So going to the last seven lines of the page Mr Keita was asked:

    "Q. Were there other units besides RUF that were fighting

    together against Mosquito Spray?

    A. Yes, they were the AFL whom I told you that their

    commander was Colonel Stanley."

    That's a name you mentioned, isn't it, Mr Witness?

  • Yes, I mentioned one Stanley.

  • You saw him retreating with RUF troops, didn't you?

  • When the RUF retreated into the savannah, into Sierra Leone, to the borderline, yes, I was asking Matthew Barbue, I said, who is this other person. He said it's Stanley. That is the only person I saw. Our men retreated and lot of people died in river and that is a savannah, an open area.

  • I'll just continue this:

    "The battalion commander in Foya, that's Stanley, and the police and the ATU. We all did the operation off Mosquito Spray from Kolahun and Voinjama."

    And then going to the next page towards the last four lines, I believe. The witness said:

    "The next one, after releasing the peacekeepers which were the Zambians and Kenyans, when Issa Sesay came with the 50 boxes of ammunition we moved from Makeni to Kamakwie and then the commander who was in Kamakwie, who was called Colonel - Did I hear something?

  • Mr Koumjian read Kamakwie twice. In fact the second word is Kokuima.

  • Thank you. Thank you, Mr Munyard.

  • "Then the commander who was in Kokuima who is called Colonel Komba Gbundema, he was the commander in Kamakwie. Then we used the Kabbah ferry. We went to Madina Wola. We attacked Madina Wola in Guinea and then in that attack we incurred more casualties."

    He was asked when the peacekeepers were taken, he said that was 2000. Mr Kolleh, you've talked about an attack in Guinea. The RUF, you told us, a lot of people died in that attack. Isn't that true?

  • Lot of people die in the river.

  • And people were wounded, RUF were wounded, correct? How about, sir, you're not answering my question but you're shaking your head. Does that mean you don't know or does that mean no?

  • No, I don't know.

  • Matthew Kennedy who was the mining commander earlier in Kono, you knew him, correct? He's a vanguard?

  • He was wounded in that attack, correct?

  • I am not aware of that.

  • Let's go to the bottom of that page, please, the last line. He was asked.

    "Q. Sir, did you receive any information, were you told

    why RUF was going to Guinea, attacking Guinea at that time.

    A. Issa Sesay said Charles Taylor informed him that we

    should give him grounds in Guinea so that the time for the

    had disarmament into Sierra Leone, some of the arms we had

    would be crossed over into Guinea for safekeeping."

    Then going down the page to about 10 lines up, the sentence that begins "the next operation", the answer that begins "the next operation".

    "The next operation was Dennis Mingo, alias Superman. When we moved from Kono we attacked Guinea closer to Kissidou."

    Going to the next page in the middle of the page he was asked at line 13:

    "Q. Who were you fighting against in that operation?

    A. We were fighting against the Guinea government.

    Q. And how long do you think you were in Guinea that time?

    A. We spent a month."

    And then he was asked if he returned, and he said:

    "We retreated to Sierra Leone."

    His next answer is:

    "We moved to Kono. From there Issa provided transport for everyone of us and we moved to Liberia and we were in Foya where we met Colonel Benjamin Yeaten and he said guys, everyone should get ready for the operation. He said this time around we have to take Gueckedou. So we used the Solomon crossing point. That is the crossing point between Liberia and Gueckedou they call Solomon."

    First before I leave that, Mr Witness, who's Benjamin Yeaten?

  • I don't know him.

  • You were RUF all throughout the war and you tell us that you don't know who Benjamin Yeaten is?

  • Thank you, sir. Let's go to the next page, the fourth line down.

    "It was a joint operation. The RUF, the AFL, the ATU, and the police."

    Going down about another 12 lines:

    "The commander was Benjamin Yeaten. The field commander was Superman and then we had different commanders. I was a commander, Matthew Barbue was a commander."

    That's the Matthew Barbue you mentioned, correct?

  • Yes, the Matthew Barbue I know retreated and went back to Makeni.

  • "Mark Gwon was a commander. Then I think the operation was planned and signed by Issa Sesay and Benjamin Yeaten and then I think I gave a copy of that to the Prosecution. I wish you can help me with the copy to identify them to the judges."

    And he produced an order or the Prosecution produced an order he had been given. Mr Witness, you know about this operation, the operation you talked about with Matthew Barbue, the RUF combined forces with the Liberian troops loyal to Charles Taylor. Isn't that true?

  • No.

  • Let's just look briefly at another witness, 2 September 2008, page 15179. That witness was asked at about 10 lines down - I'll wait till it's up. He was asked at line 10:

    "Q. Now who was Matthew Barbue?

    A. Matthew Barbue was an RUF vanguard, but he was a

    Liberian.

    Q. And who promoted him to major general?"

    The answer from this witness who is TF1-338 was:

    "A. The agreement was between Benjamin Yeaten and Issa.

    The two of them joined together to promote him."

    Can I just go down the page a bit, I want to see if I can find - okay, I'll skip that and go to the next witness. If we can have 18 November, please, 2008, page 20506. At the bottom of the page, the last three lines the witness says, and this, sir, is Augustine Mallah:

    "I said the only time I went towards Guinean-Sierra Leone border or the Liberian-Sierra Leone border was at the time Issa Sesay sent me to go and join the NPFL soldiers at Mendekoma in Liberia to fight against the LURD rebels, but I did not in fact explain the other problem, but when you spoke about the Guinean problem, and that was something that actually happened between the two of us, he said I should go as a reinforcement to Guinea, but I refused going."

    I would now like the transcript, please, for 5 March 2008, TF1-337.

  • Would you state the page, please.

  • Sorry, 5 March 2008, 5337 is what I have.

  • About 10 lines down, the witness said:

    "At this time I was at Kamakwie Number 3 with Komba

    Gbundema, when Issa Sesay, Morris Kallon and my former

    commander, Augustine Gbao, came and met us at Kamakwie and

    we all slept in the same house. Then the following morning

    Komba Gbundema held a muster parade and Issa Sesay and

    Morris Kallon addressed the fighters there to go and attack

    the Guinean territory to oust Lansana Conte.

    Q. Who spoke at this muster parade and said that?

    A. Issa Sesay was the first person to talk to us. Later

    Morris Kallon addressed us and I also saw a Guinean who

    also addressed us a bit.

    Q. What did Issa Sesay say when addressing this muster

    parade?

    A. Issa Sesay told us at the muster parade that

    ex-President Charles Taylor had given him that mission to

    launch an attack against Lansana Conte in Guinea."

    Mr Witness, can we have 9 April 2008, please, page 7056.

  • Mr Koumjian, I'm just curious, are you going to ask the witness any questions on these transcripts you've been going through or are you formulating an address on the evidence that perhaps would be better reserved until final submissions?

  • I plan to ask the witness about his evidence. This is the last transcript I'll read before doing that.

  • I see. I'm just a bit concerned that if you ask him about a specific transcript we'll have to go back and open that transcript again.

  • I'm asking about the general proposition of the forces being combined for attacks on Guinea and Sierra Leone and Liberia, Lofa County. This is the last transcript I'll read.

  • Sir, five lines downs, this witness TF1-516 said:

    "After the insurgents took back Voinjama another attack was organised, but that was now within the Armed Forces of Liberia and Voinjama was captured. It spent so long and in 2000, the year 2000, some time in 2000, Voinjama again fell into the hands of the insurgents and this time Superman was called upon to come and take care of that situation."

    Then going down about 10 pages he said --

  • Ten lines.

    "Q. And the message was directed, the message was from

    who?

    A. From Benjamin D Yeaten.

    Q. And directed to who?

    A. To General Issa Sesay."

    I'm going to skip that, but I would like to read - while I'm looking for what I was looking for, I'd like to distribute a document.

  • May I inquire if this document is going to add to the mass of evidence that's just been presented on this point and whether or not there is going to be a question now about this, or if the document is on a different issue, could we please have the question that we've all been waiting for.

  • Well, when the document has been distributed I think counsel will find it apparent what I'm going to ask about.

  • Mr Witness, we've heard testimony just now from many different Prosecution witnesses, talking about how the RUF combined forces with Charles Taylor's Liberian armies, the AFL and different other militias or police, SOD, in operations in Guinea and in Lofa County. You know, don't you, that the RUF combined forces with Charles Taylor's forces, the Liberian forces, in that Guinea operation. Don't you know that?

  • No.

  • Well, sir, we were given a summary of your evidence. Can you tell us, first of all, when did you first speak to the Defence? When did you first give an interview to the Defence in this case?

  • I think 2008 ending.

  • Who was that interview with?

  • I spoke with Gray, Gus.

  • Who else? Anyone else?

  • And I spoke with - I spoke with Gus, I spoke with John Gray and later I spoke with Logan.

  • Okay. The first interview you told us was in 2008, and did they write down what you said?

  • When were you interviewed by Ms Hambrick, by Logan?

  • Do you recall the month?

  • I don't recall the month, sir.

  • When was the next time you spoke to the Defence?

  • When was that? What month?

  • I think that was some part of - middle of 2009, I don't remember the month, please.

  • You just said 2010. Let me ask you this: Where was that interview?

  • So all of the interviews you've told us about were in Monrovia, the three of them?

  • Not all of the interview. For the Prosecution it was in Sierra Leone.

  • All of your interviews with the Defence were in Monrovia?

  • And, sir, on each of those occasions were notes taken of what you were saying?

  • Have you met with anyone since you met with Logan Hambrick, Ms Hambrick?

  • You mean after I met them if I have ever met anybody before reaching here, please?

  • Yes. Have you talked about the case since you talked to Ms Hambrick in Monrovia, this third interview that you mentioned?

  • No, up to present I have not.

  • When you came to The Hague - first of all, sir, we're very happy to see you here testifying in November but you actually were listed as being the Defence witness - we received notice you would testify for the last week of April, that you would be the only witness for the Defence that week. Why didn't you come here in April, or did you? Did you come to The Hague in April?

  • I had a problem on my leg before, so my leg was swelled up. I was in the hospital. Even up to now I told you if I haul my trouser, you will know the difference from my leg, my left leg.

  • So the same problem you have now you had in April, correct?

  • So why wasn't it you couldn't travel in April?

  • In April, I told you, I had this problem on my leg and then the first time actually I was supposed to travel school was in session. When we closed, just before closing, my leg again, the moment I sit for one or two three hours my leg will begin to swell up. If I gather right now you will know the difference. It's beginning to swell up again.

  • Okay, so you couldn't come in April with this problem but you could come in October to testify in November. Sir, did you hear, since you've been in The Hague, did you go over your testimony, did you talk about happened in the war with Defence counsel?

  • Pardon me?

  • Did you speak to Mr Munyard or with any member of the Defence team in preparation of your testimony here in The Hague?

  • Well, Mr Kolleh, I got an email on Friday with some new information from a proofing session with you, indicating the Defence said that you were going to talk about some new areas. Are you saying you didn't talk to the Defence since you've been here?

  • I met them to discuss - I came, I saw them -- [overlapping speakers].

  • So you just lied to us when you just said that you didn't talk to them here?

  • I saw the Defence.

  • You only spoke to the Defence one time?

  • I saw them one time.

  • The second day of my arrival here.

  • When did you arrive, sir?

  • I came here on Wednesday morning. We left from Sierra Leone Tuesday.

  • Sir, we received an email on Friday saying that there were a couple of new topics and indicating that they were going to be speaking to you over the weekend so there could be new information. Did they speak to you over the weekend before you testified?

  • Mr Kolleh, are you lying?

  • I saw them but I was not briefed on anything.

  • I see again you looked down as you began your answer.

  • No, that is how usually I behave.

  • Mr Kolleh, what the summary said, that the Defence provided to us, if you look on the last page, page 42 of 103 of these summaries, the second to last paragraph, it says:

    "He will give evidence on the departure of Sam Bockarie from RUF to Liberia and his subsequent death." And then this is more important, sir, listen, the summary of your anticipated evidence is that you will, "Give evidence on the attacks in Guinea by the RUF and the Armed Forces of Liberia. The witness will say that the two combined forces to neutralise a common threat."

    So, sir, you did tell the Defence in your interviews that in Guinea the RUF combined forces with the Armed Forces of Liberia, didn't you?

  • No, sir.

  • So this is false, what the Defence provided us was incorrect, false information about your evidence?

  • I told the RUF attack Guinea but we were not directly combined forces to go and fight into Guinea under any command from Liberia.

  • So just like you say the Prosecution didn't write down what you said right, now you say the Defence didn't write down what you said correct. Is that right? You're saying both of them got it all wrong about what your evidence is, is that correct?

  • For what you are talking about Guinea, the RUF attack Guinea. We were not under one command from Liberia. I told you, no.

  • Mr Kolleh, the question you are now being asked is did Defence counsel misquote you here in the summary that they've written and disclosed? Because these are not the words of Prosecution counsel; these are words from Defence counsel; that you will give evidence on attacks in Guinea by the RUF and the Armed Forces of Liberia and you will say that the two combined forces to neutralise a common threat. These are words written down by Defence counsel, emanating from an interview with you.

  • Yes, ma'am, but I was asked previously whether fighting was in Guinea from Liberia [overlapping speakers].

  • Mr Witness - Mr Witness, let me stop you right there. Answer the question I've asked you. We're talk about the paper that is in front of us. We're not asking what happened in Guinea or didn't happen. We are asking whether Defence counsel wrote something inaccurate on this piece of paper.

  • What is inaccurate about it?

  • That - what is inaccurate is we were combined.

  • Mr Koumjian, there you have it.

  • Mr Witness, you've also talked about your friend John Vincent, who also testified for the Defence.

    Could we have his transcript from 30 March 2010, page 382, I believe it's 60.

  • Mr Koumjian, just before we leave, that I think there might be a bit of misunderstanding in what the witness just answered. You're saying that what is inaccurate in what Defence counsel wrote down and sent to the Prosecution on that summary that was read to you, you're saying what is inaccurate is that we were combined. But are you saying that the RUF and the Armed Forces of Liberia did attack in Guinea but that they did not combine their forces, they attacked as separate forces?

  • Yes, sir. I said it earlier. I said the RUF attacked Guinea, at the same time the Liberian government forces attacked Guinea and I was asked if they were fighting common enemies, I said I believe but we, the RUF attacked Guinea. That's what I said earlier.

  • And that's what you're saying that the Defence got wrong when it wrote down this summary?

  • What I'm asked on is by combining to enter into Guinea is what I'm saying I didn't say it.

  • Mr Kolleh, you understand that the proposition of the Prosecution, a key issue in this case, is that we say that the evidence shows that the RUF was working for Charles Taylor and following his orders all along. So you realise, don't you, it would be very important whether or not the RUF was fighting in a combined force with Charles Taylor in Guinea. You recognise the importance of that issue, don't you?

  • Mr Kolleh, thank you for looking down again and shaking your head. Mr Kolleh, what did the RUF gain in attacking Guinea?

  • We were always attacked from Guinea by Kamajors, so we ourselves returned same to them in Guinea. Guinea had always been used to attack by the CDF and the Guinean forces, so we attacked them to put fear in them so that next time they don't do same to us, when they have attacked on separate different occasion twice.

  • It was LURD, Charles Taylor's enemy, that was based in Guinea?

  • No, sir.

  • And LURD was threatening Charles Taylor. That's why you attacked Guinea?

  • No, sir. The Kamajors had earlier attacked us, even the Guinean forces have attack us before wherein the RUF captured another war tank, it was sitting right closer to Koindu and that was another time again we have to put another fear in them, attacking Nongowa and between Nongowa and Gueckedou, Fangamadou.

  • Sir, the Guinean forces, part of ECOMOG, you'd been fighting them in Sierra Leone since 1991, isn't that true?

  • Yes.

  • And you never invaded Guinea before, the RUF, until Charles Taylor gave you the order to go after and punish them for the LURD attacks. Isn't that correct? In 2000?

  • Yes, we did not do that before because the group that was attacking us was ECOMOG forces, it was not specified as Guinean directly and we used to trade with the Guineans, but to some extent when the Guinean territory was used to attack the RUF, that's how we ourselves began to do same. But from the beginning we were doing business with Guinea but ECOMOG forces comprised of so many African countries from West Africa.

  • Mr Koumjian, I've just got one other question on that. Mr Witness, you've said in answer to a question I asked that this is quoting you, "I said the RUF attacked Guinea at the same time the Liberian government force attacked Guinea." But my question is why would the RUF want to attack Guinea if it already knew that the Liberian government was attacking Guinea? Why bother?

  • Before the witness answers your question, Justice Lussick, it's predicated on the fact that the RUF did know that the Liberians were attacking. I don't know if that's been established in the evidence. I might be wrong.

  • I'm sure the witness is capable of clearing that up in his answer, Mr Munyard.

  • He may be but I think the question should be fairly based on the evidence and the assumption behind the --

  • The question is based on an answer he gave me. Now if there are any complications in that, the witness can say that. He doesn't need any prompting.

  • I'm not prompting.

  • All right then, allow the witness to answer the question. Do you want me to ask that again, Mr Kolleh?

  • In answer to a question I asked, you said, and I'll quote you again:

    "I said the RUF attacked Guinea at the same time the Liberian government force attacked Guinea. And I was asked if they were fighting common enemies, I said I believe that we are the RUF attacked Guinea".

    Now my question is why would the RUF attack Guinea if the Liberian government force was attacking Guinea?

  • I only know of the RUF attacking Guinea and that was the first attack. It was the following day we begin to hear another sound from Liberia direction. Fighting was not going on in Guinea before the RUF could enter there. That is not to my knowledge, sir.

  • I understand. Yes, Mr Koumjian.

  • Mr Kolleh, you've just mentioned you heard sounds coming from Liberia and that's what you said I believe the first day of your evidence, 1 November. Why would that make you think that there was fighting of the AFL in Guinea if you heard sounds coming from Liberia?

  • There's a narrow border there from Sierra Leone to Liberia to Guinea, it is in a triangular form. So right there even when somebody fire from Liberia you would know, you would get the sound. And when the Guinean were shelling they were shelling in both direction, all over. It is not a forest to say you will not know. It's just an open desert - sorry, savannah. You can stand and see into Guinea. You can stand and look into Liberia. That part of Liberia and Sierra Leone and Guinea is comprised of savannah land.

  • So, sir --

  • Sir, when you said there were sounds coming from Liberia did you mean you heard that you were receiving artillery support from the Liberian forces, they were firing into Guinea to support you?

  • I was getting sound from Liberia between Liberia and Sierra Leone - I mean, sorry, between Liberia and Guinea. That is the border is very narrow as I told you earlier. They were not giving support to the RUF but there was also a fighting existing between Liberia and Guinea whereas same was existing between the RUF and Guinea too.

  • If we could have the transcript of 30 March 2010, 38260.

  • The testimony of, Mr Witness, your friend John Vincent. Fellow vanguard. He was on that attack, wasn't he, Mr Kolleh? John Vincent took part in the attack in Guinea, didn't he?

  • I don't remember seeing Vincent.

  • Let's look at his testimony, please, the bottom of the page, 38260 from 30 March. He was asked:

    "Q. And another main point you testified about was that

    the RUF and the AFL, the Liberian armed forces, after the

    Lome Accord, sometime later they joined forces to attack

    Gueckedou and other towns in Guinea, correct?

    A. Yes, you are correct."

    So we see, Mr Witness, that the summary of your anticipated evidence that we received from the Defence where it says that the RUF combined forces with the AFL, it coincides not only with the Prosecution witnesses, it coincides with Mr Vincent's testimony, and that's because it's the truth, isn't it?

  • I can't tell you what Vincent said, that's what he said. What I'm aware of is what I'm telling you here. I am not Vincent.

  • Sir, have your changed your testimony since April?

  • When you were - when we were told you were coming to testify the last week in April, did you change your testimony?

  • And how about - you talked about a leg problem. You were able to travel in October, is that correct?

  • When did your leg problem clear up enough for your to travel?

  • Come again?

  • When were you able to travel?

  • I was able to travel in October. Even before that again I was in the hospital. I just recovered.

  • When were you in the hospital?

  • I was in the hospital October - sorry, September. September ending to October. I recovered from the hospital from I think 1st or 2nd of October. My leg was swell up, I have to go for some taps and other antibiotics.

  • Now, Mr Witness, you told us that you don't know where ammunition for the RUF came from. If we could keep that page on the screen, please. Except for this one ULIMO deal before the AFRC coup. Is that correct? You don't know where the RUF got its ammunition after that?

  • You mean after getting from ULIMO?

  • No, even in Freetown we received ammunition at Magburaka.

  • And do you know of people coming from Liberia with ammunition?

  • You talked about Kissi, Jungle, he brought ammunition, didn't he?

  • Let's look just while its on the screen, the same page of John Vincent, just above where I read, beginning line 21:

    "Q. You also said you met Daniel Tamba in Buedu" - and I

    believe, Mr Witness, there's no controversy in this case

    that Daniel Tamba is a Kissi called Jungle - "and that

    Daniel Tamba, known as Jungle, had a house in Buedu and he

    would come and go to Liberia, bringing ammunition to the

    RUF.

    You didn't know that, Mr Witness?

  • I'm not aware, sir.

  • And, Mr Witness, the last witness before you who testified for the Defence, 008, said Jungle Daniel Tamba, a man named Sampson, a Liberian security officer, and with Zigzag Marzah brought ammunition from Liberia to Sierra Leone. You're aware of that, aren't you?

  • Could the witness be shown - and I think it may take some time because it came up today so I haven't given notice, D-123G. If that photograph could either be put on the screen or shown to the witness.

  • Incidentally, whilst the picture is being put on the screen, Mr Witness, you said this, you said in answer to the question why was it necessary for the RUF to attack Guinea if Liberia had already attacked, and you said that the RUF forces went in one day without any knowledge of the Liberians attacking and then the next day they heard gunshots and Liberia attacked. This is what you said basically, correct?

  • Yes, I said I started hearing sound the next day.

  • Did you participate in this particular attack yourself?

  • No, sir. No, ma'am.

  • So what do you mean you started hearing sounds the next day?

  • That is a Koindu - I was around Koindu. The borderline is not far away from each other, ma'am. That borderline just like a triangular formation. You stand, you look inside Liberia, you stand and look inside Guinea. That's a wide Savannah cover up to 10 to 15 miles on either side.

  • How did you know from just the sound of hearing gunshots, how did you know who was attacking?

  • Because that sound was existing between Liberia and Guinea and then when the shelling is coming from Guinea with heavy artillery, was pounding into Liberia, pounding into Sierra Leone as well. That's how I got to know.

  • So you're standing in Koindu and that's how you knew who was attacking who?

  • That's how I knew the attack was going on between Liberia and Guinea, and also between the RUF and Guinea also, pounding was taken place inside Sierra Leone, rocket flying into Liberia. The rocket was flying all over.

  • Could the witness be shown this photograph, please, it's D-123G.

  • Mr Witness, this looks to me like a big gun. Would you agree to that?

  • I don't actually know the name of this weapon but it's a weapon. It's a big weapon.

  • It's a howitzer, some type of howitzer, isn't that correct? Have you heard it called that?

  • The word howitzer, have you heard it called that?

  • Okay, is this the kind of weapon you could take by canoe across a river?

  • No, sir, it's not possible.

  • Did the RUF take this weapon to Charles Taylor?

  • Not to my knowledge, sir.

  • Well, Charles Taylor told us that they did, that he received it from Foday Sankoh and the reference to that is his testimony from 22 July 2009?

  • Yes, that's what he said but for me I did not see this weapon.

  • And just for counsel's benefit --

  • I never see it going.

  • -- the page is 24999. You said - can trucks go on canoes, Mr Witness?

  • Truck cannot go on canoe. If you knew canoe it's just something 4 four, five, six, seven or ten persons sit in to paddle. This cannot go in canoe.

  • Could the witness be shown the testimony from 9 July this year, page 44128.

  • Now, Mr Witness, I'm going to read to you some testimony from Issa Sesay but I have to admit something to you. While I believe part of this testimony, that a truck can cross a river, you've already told us that Issa Sesay was in Luawa Giehun when the massacres occurred, correct?

  • Yes.

  • So when Issa Sesay came to this Court and said no, he was in the hospital with a wound to his buttock, he was lying, wasn't he?

  • I don't know. I can't tell.

  • Issa Sesay also testified to us that from the time he came back from losing the diamonds in April until the December attack on Kono he was in Pendembu the whole time and you told us he was never based in Pendembu, he would just come, he was based in Kono, isn't that true, in '98?

  • He was not just based there. I told you he used to come and visit other family or some of his family and go back. I told you earlier.

  • He was based in Kono, correct?

  • So thank you for clarifying that Issa Sesay lied on those two points, but I want to still read some of his testimony to you. At page 44128, about 10 lines down Issa Sesay said - let me just give you some context and if anyone believes I'm misstating the evidence I'm sure they'll correct me. Issa Sesay claimed in this trial that before the attack on Kono in December 1998 Sam Bockarie brought ammunition from Lofa County, that he came from Lofa County with the ammunition that was used to attack Kono and then after that successful attack that ammunition was captured and they moved on to Makeni and Waterloo trying to get to Freetown and this is what he said --

  • It would be helpful if you could quote the line from which you're reading.

  • It's about line 10. Thank you, that's it. Line 9.

  • Mr Sesay testified:

    "I said he said that he brought some of the ammunition from the battalion commander in Voinjama and" --

  • I hope I'm not being too nit-picking but throughout this whole passage and the preceding lines the word is "bought" rather than "brought". Now, I don't know at this stage whether that's a mistranscription or whether that is correct. But it is "bought" throughout.

  • I'm sure I misread it, I apologise. I'm sure the transcript is correct, he did say "bought". I recall that.

  • So on line 9:

    "I said he said he bought some of the ammunition from the

    battalion commander in Voinjama and when he came he got

    some other ammunition from Benjamin Yeaten in Kolahun that

    he bought.

    Q. And did Bockarie say whether or not these purchases

    were with the knowledge and permission of Taylor?

    A. No, Bockarie did not tell me that."

    Then going down the page about 10 lines, he was asked:

    "Q. And what was the quantity of the ammunition that was

    purchased by Bockarie from these individuals?

    A. You mean the quantity of the ammunition? Well, the AK

    rounds were up to 40 boxes and the G3 rounds, I think it

    was about 15 boxes and the HMG rounds were about 10 boxes.

    Q. And how was this ammunition transported to Sierra

    Leone?

    A. They were in a truck.

    Q. How big was this truck?

    A. It was a civilian truck, a ten-wheel truck."

    So, Mr Witness, a ten-wheel truck can come from Lofa County to Buedu. It's happened many times. That's one thing that Issa Sesay didn't lie about, a truck can come across the border. Isn't that true?

  • Across the border from?

  • Lofa County to Kailahun.

  • I told you earlier that in Lofa County there's a land, you don't have to cross water into Sierra Leone. The crossing - the bridge is Bo Waterside between Sierra Leone and Liberia. I kept telling you.

  • Mr Witness, are you agreeing with the question that counsel asked? Is your answer yes?

  • I'm saying yes. You can cross by land. It's not a water.

  • The question was not whether you can cross by land. The question related to a ten-wheel truck.

  • I am not aware of a ten-wheel truck.

  • So what is your answer yes or no?

  • Let him pose the question again, ma'am.

  • A ten-wheel truck can come from Voinjama to Buedu and that happened all the - often, isn't it true?

  • Mr Witness, how deep is the river in the dry season?

  • The Moa River I know, where the ferry is, is always dark throughout the dry season to rainy season, deep, because where a ferry can cross it's a deep place.

  • Mr Witness, I want to ask you a little bit more, I'll try to do it quickly, about SBUs. Now you told me there were SBUs, correct?

  • They were armed, correct?

  • No, if people were considered SBU, a small boys or small children that could stay around commanders to help for domestic affair. In the process of their height - sorry, some of them by their height they were not considered SBU, they would go to front line, but not at the battle zone. They will go to front line and they would handle arms. But as far as RUF was concerned if you talk about real SBU, those were someone who stays around a commander in term of domestic issues. But for the matter of your height you could take an arm, but we did not know their ages.

  • They were small, small children, correct?

  • Yes, but that small children, a commander will always say, "Small soldier, come closer to me," "Small soldier, give me water let me drink," to encourage them to be part of you. But when you talk about real SBU who were more or less with commander visiting front line, they were people who were able-bodied, who were able to run, based on their height, sir.

  • So sir do you know the difference, can you tell the difference between a 13 year old and an 18 year old, for example?

  • A 13-year-old girl and an 18-year-old girl, can you tell the difference?

  • The only difference I can tell is I compare height. According to your height we can place you in a category. According to your height you could always be placed in a category.

  • So a tall 13-year-old girl you could take for a wife?

  • You can't tell the age, you told us, you would just go by the height. Would you take a tall 13-year-old girl as a wife?

  • We are not talking about wife. We are talking about SBU, sir.

  • Even the "Footpaths to Democracy" talks about the RUF arming children, did you know that? Just for reference, I don't think we need to show it, that's exhibit D-336 page 9737.

  • Please repeat your question.

  • Sir, "Footpaths to Democracy", you know that document, don't you?

  • It was written by Addai-Sebo, you know that, don't you?

  • Dr Sebo, do you know Dr Sebo?

  • Yes, I indeed, I knew one Sebo.

  • In fact you used to take hostages from him

  • I told you, I said, yes, indeed, I know him.

  • Sir, yes, and I'm going to want you to explain a little bit how you know him. You know him because you brought hostages that had been taken from Sierra Rutile with Dr Sebo to the Guinea border, correct?

  • What were brought from Sierra Rutile?

  • Five white men and some other hostages that had been taken in attacks on Sierra Rutile and other places?

  • Yes, some people were captured from Sierra Rutile, Dr Wai, some foreigners, they were captured at Sierra Rutile and indeed I escorted them along with Sebo. That was the time I served as transporter '94, '95.

  • In the document, and I don't think it's necessary to show it again unless someone asks, D-336, "Footpaths to Democracy", it says on page 9737 that the RUF trained a large number of men and women, including the elderly, children, youths and the disabled. That's true, isn't it? You trained and armed youths and children?

  • We trained men and women, we trained children of various heights. I told you by your height you can make categorised. That's what I told you earlier.

  • You've made that clear. So, sir, when the RUF captured a town, those who had enough height, you took them away from their parents to join the RUF. You separated them from their parents. Isn't that true?

  • Whenever the RUF captured a place and captured these people, civilians in particular, they will be taken to the rear, the rear in the sense our safety zone and they would be handed over to the G5 and it is the G5 who - that goes about to deal with these people. In the process of somebody who wants to join the RUF, then you can be taken to the base.

  • Sir, you didn't want the older people. You separated the children from their parents and you took the children with you. That's the truth, isn't it?

  • You know the RUF anthem.

  • You remember the RUF anthem that would be sung at the muster parades, correct?

  • Yes, but for now I'm forgetting a bit.

  • Well, do you remember the line, "go and tell my parents they will see me no more"?

  • Yes, that anthem was created on the base. It was created on the base. Not because we captured people, so we told them to sing that song. No, sir.

  • Sir, I know it may be funny to think about singing but never seeing your parents again is not very funny, is it? Children being separated and being forced to -- [overlapping speakers]

  • That was not the intention of that slogan or that song. No, sir.

  • Could we have the testimony, please, of 20 April 2010. Mr Musa Fayia.

  • You're asking me?

  • I'm asking the Court Officer, sir. Just wait a moment. I'm going to read to you the testimony of one of your fellow RUF who testified for the Defence in this case. I don't know if I gave you the page, page 39456. Around the middle of the page, line 16. One of Charles Taylor's Defence witnesses, a senior member of the RUF was asked:

    "Q. Sir, did the RUF arm children?

    A. You said?

    Q. Did the RUF give weapons to children?

    A. Yes, they did. They gave them weapons.

    Q. How old were the children that were armed by the RUF?

    A. They were children. Children. Children of child age.

    Q. So from ten up; would you agree with that?

    A. Yes, I do. They were arming them."

    Then if we could have the testimony from 12 April, please.

  • Which year, please?

  • Another Defence witness, another one of your fellow RUF, Charles Ngebeh. If we go to about the question beginning about six lines down, page 38767.

  • Madam President, it was in open session. I have the feeling that the witness's name was not made public but we'll check that.

  • It definitely was, but please check.

  • We'll check it in any event and I see the time.

  • Well, we had better check before we break if there's any doubt but I'm quite certain he's an open witness.

  • You said the page was what again?

  • Page 38767 but perhaps we just first resolve this issue if any of the Court officers can confirm that the witness on 12 April 2010, I don't have his DCT number --

  • I'm looking at the transcript and it looks as though he wasn't protected because I think I've referred to him by name. So I don't think it's a problem, but I think we have now reached --

  • I'm in your Honours' hands.

  • I don't think it's a problem. I'm not pursuing that.

  • We'll take a midmorning break and reconvene at 11.30.

  • [Break taken at 11.30 a.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 11.40 a.m.]

  • I'm given to understand that the problems that we had with LiveNote during the midmorning break have now been resolved. So, Mr Koumjian, you may continue.

  • May I have just one moment. Your Honour, first, may I announce a change of appearance. For the Prosecution we are joined by Mohamed A Bangura.

  • Thank you, Mr Koumjian.

  • I am distributing a document but actually there's a second document that I also want. Before I deal with that, I'll just send an email. With permission of your Honours, if someone from my office can bring that in to me, it's related to the document I'm distributing later this morning, I'll continue with my cross-examination. But if it's okay for someone to walk in the door and hand us a document. Thank you.

  • Sir, the point we were at, I was about to read to you from the testimony of Charles Ngebeh.

  • Mr Koumjian, in view of the fact that we cannot access our private record - previous record, could you repeat the transcript reference, please.

  • Yes. Just as a hint, you mean the prior LiveNote? If you connect to the transcript that you had previously open, you'll have the whole transcript. I have, but anyway. The reference is 12 April 2010, page 38767.

  • I'm reading from the testimony of Mr Ngebeh, just starting at the first line. He said:

    "Atrocities really happened in that country, Mama, I can't

    deny that. It happened, RUF was marking people. We

    ourselves who were captured, they marked us. We, the

    soldiers, it happened. I can't deny that. It was done by

    Sierra Leoneans."

    And then he was asked:

    "Q. And throughout the conflict, the RUF used children

    under the age of 15 years, Isn't that right?

    A. Mama, all this that you're talking about, the whole

    world knows about it. It happened. It happened, you're

    right."

    Mr Kolleh, is it the case that the whole world, except for you, knows about the RUF arming children under 15? Are you the one who doesn't know that?

  • No, sir.

  • Will you admit, sir, under oath, to this Court, you know that the RUF was arming children under 15. That's true, isn't it?

  • I told you, we had SBU, I cannot distinguish their ages, please.

  • So, sir, once again, when we talk about taking women, girls, and giving them to fighters. If you can't distinguish their ages, you would give a girl to a fighter not knowing their age, is that right?

  • No fighter ever gave a girl to another fighter. That was not done within the RUF. By you taking somebody to give this person, "This is your wife." No, sir.

  • It happened all the time and commanders had the first choice; isn't that true?

  • It happened all the time and commanders had the first choice; isn't that true?

  • Issa Sesay had a young girl, 13 or 14 years old, who was later in the child care centre in Makeni as his wife; isn't that true?

  • I'm not aware of that.

  • Sir, you've had SBUs, correct? Where are you looking at now, sir? May the record reflect that there was no answer for 20 seconds.

  • I did not have SBU, no.

  • Let's take, for example, Musa. He was one of your SBUs, correct?

  • I never had no Musa as SBU, sir.

  • I knew Musa when Musa with me he had body even than I do, very huge, Musa, he was always with me whenever I was sent by Foday Sankoh from Kailahun, Zogoda, Zogoda, Kailahun.

  • How old is Musa now?

  • Musa is over 30-something years. He's huger than I do. He's right now in Kailahun. If you go in Kailahun right now, you ask in Sandiaru who is Musa, they will show you. I did not ever travel with people in the bush, children, no, my assignment did not call for children.

  • So he's about 30 now?

  • He's between 30 to 35. He's not a small child. He might be 35. Huge somebody, he had body than I do, taller than me.

  • Well, if he was 30 and if you met him when you were in Zogoda and when you were in Kailahun, you went to Kailahun in '94, that's 16 years ago. If he was 30, he was 14 at the time. But he's younger than 30, isn't he?

  • Musa is tall and huge. Right now if you compare the two of us, you will find that he has body more than I do.

  • Well, sir, right now, 2010, this is 17 years after 1993. How big was he in 1993?

  • Which month you call 1993, sir. I did not know Musa in 1993.

  • Let's say 1994. You were in Kailahun you said in 1994?

  • Going to Zogoda. 16 years ago. He was a small boy, wasn't he?

  • No. You don't just go to Kailahun and just get a bodyguard. How do you just get a bodyguard? Musa, I took Musa, I took one Sahr, they were with me whenever I am travelling from Kailahun to Zogoda whenever I was appointed as transporter. I never travel with these people as people who would guard me throughout. When going to Zogoda I move from Kailahun to Peyima, the commander in charge would provide armed escort me to the Zogoda; same would be done on my return. So I did not move directly with a bodyguard without an escort.

  • You took him from where?

  • Mr Witness, you said you took Musa and who else?

  • Is that S-A-H-R, sir?

  • It could be S-A-R-H also, it could be S-A-H-R. It could be S-A-A-R.

  • And who were these people Musa and Sahr? What were they to you?

  • Whenever I move to the Zogoda they move with me, they were with me.

  • I asked you what they were doing with you.

  • They were assigned with me when I'm carrying a food items, like any clothing bought from Guinea like baby diapers and other things to the Zogoda or Maggi cube. When I'm carrying it they move with me. They have to help me. I needed two persons to help me, that's why I took them from Giema. I was not carrying on the front line to say they were direct bodyguard or armed men to escort me to the front line, no, sir.

  • Were they assisting you in carrying loads or what?

  • They were with me. Yes, in another sense, they were with me. And when we are coming back again to Kailahun they are with me. They were assigned with me, sir.

  • Assigned with you to do what?

  • If I'm making a movement to the Zogoda, we move together. When we come back to Kailahun, we all are together to the headquarters which was Giema.

  • You are not answering my questions. They were assigned with you to do what exactly? What was their assignment?

  • Why was that so difficult for you to tell me?

  • As bodyguard, ma'am.

  • So they carried weapons to guard you with?

  • One person carry weapon. Sahr carry weapons.

  • And the other one was a bodyguard without a weapon?

  • No, sir, he never had a weapon.

  • And he was still a bodyguard?

  • Yes. Once I was with the MP first, these people were part of the MPs. Once the assignment was changed to go to the Zogoda and come, this is how I took them from the MP to be with me.

  • And, Mr. Mr Witness, were Sahr and Musa, were they both SBUs?

  • No. They were not SBU. Today if you see them in Kailahun they will tell you that they were not SBU. Even if you ask people who knew them.

  • I'm asking you. I'm not going to Kailahun. I'm asking you. It's your testimony we're trying to follow.

  • What about Koroma? He was another SBU for you, wasn't he?

  • You don't know Koroma?

  • Mr Witness, in the summary that I read for you - from you, it said that you would talk about the death of Sam Bockarie. So I want to give you the chance to do that. What do you know about Sam Bockarie's murder?

  • When I went back to Liberia, 2006, I enter Monrovia. I met Pa Moriba one time who was also one of the vanguards of the RUF. And I tried to ask him, how is the place and he told me where the place we are here. Sam Bockarie is dead. And I asked him how he die. He told me one time they were in the vehicle with Benjamin Yeaten and Yeaten asked - he asked in parable and then he told them, he say, gentlemen, if you have a crab - sorry, if there's a law in the village that no one holds a crab, and then you want to hold a crab and carry, all the time the crab is busting the leaf that you are putting the crab in. What would you do to hide that crab?

  • The what?

  • You mean the crab, this creature with?

  • And he say, according to Pa Moriba, you don't want to answer. They say, no, sir, we don't know the answer. And he said the only way you will hide a crab is to kill the crab and carry into the town. That is the only way, nobody will know that that is a crab. And so after that statement, he didn't stay long. Benjamin Yeaten came and collected the wife, all the family of Mosquito to the borderline, say, "Your husband wants to see you" towards Ivory Coast border. And then they went. After another two days, he heard that Mosquito had been killed with his wife and children.

  • Mr Witness, did you say earlier in your evidence today that you did not know Benjamin Yeaten?

  • So, Mr Witness, who is Benjamin Yeaten?

  • I don't know him. I am quoting what Pa Moriba told me. I'm quoting to you here, sir.

  • So when I asked you yesterday and today about Benjamin Yeaten, why didn't you say I know he was the guy that killed Sam Bockarie?

  • Why did you say, both yesterday and today, when I asked you about Yeaten, you didn't know him?

  • I don't know him. This is information I am quoting to you from Pa Moriba. But we used to call him Pa Moriba. I'm quoting what he told me to you. I did not ever tell you I saw Benjamin Yeaten or I know him.

  • Mr Witness, Sam Bockarie left, you said, 16 December 1999. He left with his wife, his children and his mother, isn't that right?

  • He left with his family. I was not present when he left.

  • Well, you were beaten by Issa Sesay because you were there in Kailahun when Mosquito left. Why did Issa Sesay beat you?

  • I did not tell you I was beaten by Issa Sesay. I told you I was arrested and taken to Pendembu and tied.

  • Tied with your arms --

  • -- against your back, tie-bayed, correct?

  • Yes, after a few hours I was released.

  • By the way, tie-bayed, it's like being beaten, isn't it? It's extremely painful, isn't it?

  • You are terribly tied. In the process your hands can be passed on your back and tied.

  • Your elbows are tied together behind you, correct? It hurts. I don't want to use profanity but it hurts a lot, doesn't it?

  • Why? Why did Issa Sesay do that to you?

  • Issa Sesay came and he came with other officers and they said I was close with Mosquito so they were not satisfied with me. So that is how they ordered me to cross the Moa River, because they came through Daru through ECOMOG deployments where ECOMOG have give them material to come to raid Pendembu. So they order me to cross over to them and that's how I told them, I say, "I don't have different intention. I was here when Mosquito left." They told me, "If you believe", they said, "cross." And I got into the canoe, I crossed to them. That's how Morris Kallon told him, "What should we do next?" And he said, "No, I did not tell you to kill anybody. Tie the man and take him to Pendembu."

  • So when you got to Monrovia, you heard about Sam Bockarie, his wife and his children being killed by Benjamin Yeaten?

  • That's what Pa Moriba told me.

  • Mr Witness, did you ever establish from Pa Moriba who this Benjamin Yeaten that had killed Bockarie was?

  • Why not?

  • I did not. I did not ask him.

  • Was Sam Bockarie not your close associate and you didn't want to know who had killed him?

  • He has already mentioned somebody's name. He told me what transpired. I didn't know him. I did not want to go further than that. I didn't ask any question beyond that, ma'am.

  • And my question to you, sir, is: Why not?

  • I was not interested in knowing who killed him in particular. Once he already narrated, there's where we stopped.

  • Why were you not interested in finding out who killed Sam Bockarie?

  • Nothing, ma'am. I didn't just want to ask further than that. Nothing.

  • Mr Witness, when did you first return to Monrovia?

  • I returned to Liberia, in particular Voinjama, in 2005 that I took part in the election. Then after we carry on the process of the election, then on the inauguration day 2006, January 16, I enter Monrovia on the inauguration day of the President elect.

  • When you say you took part in the election, you were working in the election campaign? Is that what you were saying?

  • No, I worked with UNMIL NEC, National Election Commission, as identification officer.

  • What was the job of an identification officer?

  • He was placed - or that individual is placed on the table where people stand on the line and they come in individually with the voting cards and you have to open a book - you had a big book wherein photos of all voters were placed inside. So whenever you come across the identification officer, he will make sure that your picture is in that book, then he can pass you on to the inker, your nails will be inked and you can go through voting.

  • What name were you using at that time?

  • Now, Mr Kolleh, you said you talked to Pa Moriba about Bockarie in 2006. Is that right?

  • Come again?

  • When did you talk to Pa Moriba about the death - where you learned about the death of Sam Bockarie?

  • He talked to me 2006 about the death of Pa Moriba - I mean of Mosquito.

  • Was that the first time you learned that Mosquito was dead?

  • No, I heard on BBC that Mosquito was dead in Sierra Leone.

  • Well, when you say "in Sierra Leone", you mean you were in Sierra Leone when you heard he was dead?

  • Yes, on BBC, because I was in Sierra Leone 2005.

  • And you heard the Liberian government claim that he was killed crossing the border?

  • I did not go further on the news. When I heard that he died, I just left the radio. I kept on my own.

  • As an RUF, when you talked about how RUF always asks about whose been arrested, how people were doing, you heard about the death of many of your RUF colleagues in Liberia, killed around the same time as Sam Bockarie. Isn't that right?

  • You don't know of any other RUF that were killed in Liberia?

  • I did not know any other person in particular that was killed, because I don't know who all went when he was leaving.

  • Well, how many people went with him?

  • I can't tell you. I was not at Buedu when he was leaving. I was at Manowa when Mosquito left on 16 December.

  • By the way, Martin Koker is one of those who died in Liberia, correct?

  • I don't know. Since I left Martin Koker or Martin Koker left me when we were in Sierra Leone up to present I have not seen him, so I don't know whether he die or he lives.

  • Did you know Toasty?

  • Now, Benjamin Yeaten, you've told - you have lived in Liberia since 2005. Is that right?

  • And in the five years that you've lived there, you've heard - never heard the name Benjamin Yeaten? You never heard about who he was?

  • There was news a couple of years ago about an arrest warrant being issued for Benjamin Yeaten for killing Sam Dokie and his family and for killing, I believe, his girlfriend Baby Girl. You read about that, didn't you?

  • I don't.

  • Mr Witness, didn't you know that Benjamin Yeaten was the chief security man for Charles Taylor?

  • I don't know, sir. I don't have much idea on that Liberia operation, please.

  • Pa Moriba was a vanguard.

  • Is this the person you said was your adjutant?

  • No, sir. Stephen Jusu Moriba was my adjutant. I can't call Stephen Jusu "Pa". I call him Stephen. He was my adjutant. Pa Moriba was somebody older than I do, so we call him Pa Moriba. Pa Moriba is different from Stephen Jusu Moriba.

  • Pa Moriba is a Liberian vanguard?

  • Yes.

  • When did he go back to Liberia, do you know?

  • He moved when Mosquito was going to Liberia, he told me. Because I asked him. After we talk I said, "Well, how did you come?" He said, "We all came into the group," meaning that he left when Mosquito was leaving.

  • Mr Witness, wouldn't it have been frightening news for all of you Liberian vanguards to know that Sam Bockarie, the former leader of the RUF, was killed, not only he, but his wife and children were killed by Charles Taylor's top security man?

  • Come again?

  • Didn't the news of Sam Bockarie being killed in 2003, it spread quickly among the RUF and it sent a message to everyone that you were in danger in Liberia. Isn't that true?

  • That's why Issa - well, Issa - before the learning of the death of Sam Bockarie, you had heard about Superman being killed, correct?

  • And that was before Issa Sesay was arrested, correct?

  • Bockarie was killed in May 2003, two months after Issa Sesay was arrested, correct?

  • I can recall the time, yes, but I don't remember the time.

  • What did you hear about Superman's death?

  • Superman's death was also - the information was also given to me by Pa Moriba again. He told me they were in Liberia one time, Benjamin Yeaten, he Pa Moriba, with Superman, with some bodyguards, they move towards Bomi Hill. But that was in the night while they were going and then Benjamin Yeaten told his driver, "Park the vehicle and halt the light." Pa Moriba said he was a little bit afraid, why must he halt the light. Then he said, "I say halt the light. I used to kill animal around here."

    So when they all came down, then Benjamin Yeaten walk ahead. When he walk ahead and he call Superman, he say, "Come and see something." And that's how Superman went. That's how Pa Moriba said he heard firing. In the process of the firing, Pa Moriba came down from the vehicle, telling the driver, "Put the lights on", and the driver said, "No, I was not ordered to put light on." After some time the driver was called to carry the vehicle further so that they can move. When he pointed the light, the driver now, Pa Moriba in the vehicle saw Superman's body. He said he got confused and he never even know what to say. And then that's how Superman die.

  • So, again, he was in the presence of Benjamin Yeaten, correct?

  • I want to ask you a little bit about - you had spent time as an MP and investigator --

  • Mr Koumjian, before you go ahead. Mr Witness, even on this occasion you did not ask Pa Moriba, "Who is this man, Benjamin Yeaten, that is involved in the killing of RUF?" You still didn't ask?

  • I did not actually go to that level. When someone is explaining something incident like that, I care to listen to what he was telling me rather than to know who, or where this or that. I did not ask. He told me that Benjamin Yeaten from Vahun towards Bomi on the road he killed Superman. That's what he told me, ma'am.

  • Why did Pa Moriba tell you this information about Superman, about Sam Bockarie, being killed by this one individual, Benjamin Yeaten? Why did he have to tell you this?

  • I knew him, he knew me as a vanguard before.

  • Why was he telling you about the death of these men?

  • Because he know me. That's why he told me. He knew me. I was a vanguard just like him, so we were friends.

  • He was telling you about the death of fellow vanguards?

  • Was this of interest to you?

  • Once we all have been friend, yes, he gave me the information because he know I knew them.

  • And were you interested in knowing the circumstances of their deaths?

  • No. We were just sitting, chatting. Just sitting and having a lecture, that's all.

  • So you didn't care who killed Bockarie or who killed Superman? You just didn't care?

  • No, sir. No, ma'am. I didn't just care to know. He was just telling me --

  • I didn't want to know. He was just giving me information of what happened when he was there and now that I have come, I met him, this is what happened to other friends that we were together before. That's why he was telling me.

  • Was Pa Moriba a commander, a bodyguard, what was his position?

  • I never knew Pa Moriba's position. He was now in Liberia. When they left, they went to Liberia, he was now living in Liberia and I met him as a former friend.

  • When he was in the RUF I'm asking. The last time you knew him in Sierra Leone, what was he?

  • He was an adviser to Mosquito on the ground. He was getting old, so sometime they would say, "Okay, you will be here and be you will be helping sometimes to advise. You are old. You don't go further." And he was in Buedu with Mosquito. He's becoming old. Even right now he's almost getting paralysed.

  • Sir, you talked in your direct examination when the Defence attorney was asking you questions, you explained about the role of the MP and you also talked about training in ideology at Naama. And you said the training was to treat captives well, to take care of them. And you said as an MP your role was to investigate any misbehaviour, such as killings, by soldiers, they would be investigated. Is that right?

  • Yes, but you are relating two questions to me. You are talking about Naama, you are talking about the MP.

  • Let's take them one at a time. At Naama am I correct in how I described the ideology?

  • I earlier told you the ideology involve what to be done during the course of the war. And when you are fighting the war you have principles to abide by. If you went contrary to this or laid-down laws or rules, you will be punished.

  • One of the principles was to treat captives well?

  • Yes.

  • Basically, that they obey the rule of law; people would be arrested for crimes, investigated and get a fair trial, is that right?

  • And that your role as an MP was to investigate and give people a trial and others would decide on punishment, is that right?

  • Killing your fellow human beings not in combat was not allowed, correct? Is that what you told us?

  • Murdering people, not in combat, but killing people, executing them, prisoners, that was not allowed, correct?

  • Now, I want to ask you a question based on your experience at Camp Naama in Liberia and as an MP. There's testimony in this Court --

  • Mr Koumjian, you just gallop along when you ask a witness a question that's rather convoluted, the witness gives you a rather ambiguous answer and you just move along. Listen to the question you asked:

    "Q. Killing people, executing them, prisoners, that was

    not allowed, correct?

    A. No.

    Now, is the answer, no, you're wrong, or no, that was not allowed?

  • That's what I told him. I say him he should be specific with a question. Because he would double a question from both left and right and push it. If indeed I say yes, perhaps he will be taking it wrong. If I say no, he will say I don't want to answer the question. That's what I told him. MP cannot be related to Naama base. MP can be related when I was in Sierra Leone already.

  • Mr Witness, can I address counsel.

  • My question was to counsel. And I think he's got the point. Please clarify with the witness what it is he meant by "no".

  • Sir, the - you are correct that the problem is I asked you a double negative. So let me ask the question in a clearer form. In the RUF were you allowed to kill prisoners?

  • In your training in Liberia, the NPFL base, Camp Naama, but specifically Crab Hole, were you told it was okay to murder people not in combat?

  • We were not told.

  • Now, let me explain something to you. You've given us information about Benjamin Yeaten's involvement in two murders; Sam Bockarie and his entire family and Superman. We've also heard from President - former President Charles Taylor about the death of Sam Dokie. And one of his witnesses, Annie Yeney, came here and told us, President Charles Taylor told us that Sam Dokie and his family were killed, their bodies burnt in a car. Annie Yeney came and she told us that she told Charles Taylor that Benjamin Yeaten and Zigzag Marzah had been involved in the arrest of Sam Dokie. Charles Taylor also told this Court that in 2003 John Yormie and Isaac Vaye, two members of government, I believe deputy ministers, were murdered and that Benjamin Yeaten told him that he killed them. And when I asked Charles Taylor if he would reappoint Benjamin Yeaten, if he came back to power today, he said he would.

    Now, is that in accordance with the ideology that you were taught; that people that murder not only their opponents but their families, are put into the position of the top security commander in the country?

  • I am far from what you are saying. I can answer question pertaining Sierra Leone. The ideology that was taught me on my base, I can tell you. You are carrying me far off base.

  • Mr Koumjian, this time I have to agree with the witness. Are you insinuating or suggesting that Benjamin Yeaten was part of the RUF? I don't understand the connection between RUF ideology and the involvement of Benjamin Yeaten in certain murders. I don't get the connection.

  • Your Honour, the connection is that Benjamin Yeaten was the top security person for Charles Taylor. And it is our position that Charles Taylor, from his own testimony, knows Benjamin Yeaten was a murderer and would reappoint him to that position. It's further our position that the RUF is simply an entity created by Charles Taylor in the image of the NPFL. So that's why I asked this witness a question. But I'll move on to a different subject.

  • Sir, I want to go on and talk to you about the invasion, the January 6th invasion of Freetown. Where were you when you first heard that troops had entered Freetown?

  • I was sitting by the radio, field radio.

  • Where?

  • I was at Manowa.

  • And were you listening to the internal - to the field radio, to the high frequency communications?

  • Who was on the radio that you heard talk about that?

  • Troops entering Freetown. Tell us what you heard, what transmission did you hear? In other words, did you hear Sam Bockarie talking to Issa Sesay? Who did you hear? Did you hear King Perry talking to Sam Bockarie? What did you hear?

  • I heard Sam Bockarie talking to - to - to Issa to tell Rambo to stop to where he is and return.

  • Well, my question to you, sir, is: When did you hear that troops had entered Freetown. So how was it in this conversation you heard that troops had entered Freetown? Explain your story.

  • Well, information from King Perry relayed to - to commanders in charge was general frequency, everybody monitor. He was saying that he has been beaten and he was - they were ordered or he has been ordered to retreat from behind the SLAs. And SAJ Musa is saying that anyone who follows them to Freetown is the enemy. And then he had dispatched from forces ahead already in Freetown. But where they are now there's a serious problem between SAJ - him and those who are coming from the RUF trying to move into Freetown. So once he was ordered beating, that's how he passed the information and then once the information travelled to Mosquito, Mosquito ordered Issa Sesay to order Rambo to stop the retreats.

  • If I read your answer correctly, I still don't see where you learnt the troops had gone into Freetown. Did you learn that on the commercial radio first or on this communication?

  • On the radio - on the field radio. BBC could be also got on the field radio frequency. If you put it there you can get it.

  • Do you remember saying that this day, the day the troops entered Freetown, 6 January 1999, was a very important day?

  • And all the RUF were very interested in what was going on in Freetown and all over the country you were listening to both the BBC and to the field radios, correct?

  • Yes.

  • So did you listen to the BBC on 6th January when the troops entered Freetown?

  • And what did it say?

  • Robin White was asking Mosquito. He said, "What are you saying?" He said, "My troops are in Freetown" and then Robin White talked to Gullit and Gullit say, "We are not under the same command. I am fighting under different command".

  • Well, sir, it's been a long time, so maybe your memory on what you heard is not so good. So let me remind you, by playing for you the broadcast of Focus on Africa from 6 January 1999. I'm going to play the portion of it that is exhibit P-262, I believe. 262.

    And just to be clear, and just to remind everyone, this is the portion that has the phone call from a Colonel Sesay. We have a longer version in evidence that begins at the very beginning of the broadcast. But just to save time, I'm only playing this portion. If anyone prefers the longer version, I could play that.

    And there's a transcript that should be distributed, that's 279B, before we play it. And I believe on page 3 of the transcript, because the transcript is of the longer version, the portion I'm about to play begins.

  • What is the exhibit number of the - that you're referring to?

  • The radio broadcast of the call from Colonel Sesay, P-262.

  • The longer version was P-279 so the transcript is P-279B, which includes the transcript of the phone call.

  • [Audiotape played to the Court]

  • Mr Kolleh, when you were with the RUF, did you meet in Freetown during the junta time, or later in Makeni or another location, FAT Sesay, Colonel FAT Sesay of the AFRC?

  • Which one you call FAT, sir?

  • Well, that's the name he goes by, FAT Sesay.

  • Let me describe him for a moment.

  • A stocky man, middle built. Do you recall him?

  • Sir, the broadcast refers to the person leading the troops as the PLO-2, TAB Yahya. That's Alex Tamba Brima, Gullit, correct?

  • So, sir, contrary to what you said, the broadcast from State House on 6 January, wasn't that for a separate force. It was these are the combined forces of the AFRC and the RUF and that the government that they were seeking to establish would be the combined - the combination of the AFRC and the RUF. That's what you just heard on the radio, correct?