The transcripts of the trial of Charles Taylor, former President of Liberia. More…

  • Madam President, there is one small preliminary matter. That is just to inform counsel opposite that there was an issue related to the disclosure for TF1-065. There was an issue related to the disclosure and the Prosecution did search both our office and another search in Freetown and we have disclosed all materials related to this witness. This is just to inform the Court and counsel opposite that a full search was made. This was in relation to TF1-065.

  • Thank you. Mr Anyah, that was a matter that you raised in the course of - if I recall correctly in fact it was in the course of examination-in-chief with that witness.

  • Yes, that is correct, Madam President. Good morning, your Honours. Good morning, Madam President. Good morning, counsel opposite. We appreciate the feedback and I think the matter is resolved at this point.

  • Thank you. That is noted. Please proceed.

  • Good morning, Mr Witness.

  • Before I start asking you some questions, Mr Witness, again I am going to remind you of two things. First, try to speak slowly.

  • Okay.

  • And also to try to avoid using - as much as possible avoid using references like "they" and "them" and try to call out who you mean. Do you understand?

  • Okay. And there are a few points from yesterday transcript and, counsel, I will just give the page reference before I ask the question. The first relates to the transcript from yesterday at 17305, line 13. Mr Witness, yesterday I was asking you about certain commanders that accompanied your group from Njaiama Nimikoro, when you left Njaiama Nimikoro. Do you remember that?

  • When I left Njaiama Nimikoro, yes, I remember that.

  • One of those commanders that you referred to and you referred to repeatedly was a person named Jah Spirit.

  • And you said later that you recalled his name is Massaquoi?

  • Do you know his full name?

  • Well, I don't know his full name. I think I just know that his name is called Massaquoi, because I heard some people calling him Massaquoi.

  • Okay. You also said in referring to Jah Spirit, you referred to him as - I am sorry, the reference here is 17306, lines 8 and 9. You said yesterday - when you were discussing Jah Spirit you said that, "He was part of the group of men I saw that were wicked." Do you remember saying that?

  • Yes, I remember saying that.

  • What did you mean by that?

  • The attitude of some of these rebels, referring to the AFRC/RUF men, of course predict what kind of person that they are. They are, I mean the AFRC/RUF, right? But the period I was with them in observations, in whatever they may do and whatever attitude they may put up one way or the other, I personally was able to determine whether this person is somehow violent, or is somebody who is very easy to deal with. That's why I actually concluded that I think I have to put these people into categories, right.

    To my observation I knew very well that there are some people, some among them, who were very easy, I can say. For example, I think I mentioned earlier that Kallay Amara was not so wicked with civilians. Kallay Amara was not - there is not an instance that I saw Kallay Amara victimising people, right, but he was involved in the war, he was fighting and he had a weapon.

    And if I am to say that Jah Spirit is a wicked man and is part or one of the men who were wicked, it's like I observed it and I noticed it, right, that Jah Spirit is wicked by some of his dealings with the ordinary people. Even myself, I mentioned yesterday something that happened between the two of us. During the training process when he asked me to do something and I tend to refuse not to do it, he threw the magazine on my face or at my face, right?

    These are some of the things that happened. I just give an example. There were a lot of things that were happening. Like I gave also an instance where during the training process, when probably you were doing a push-up and you are not doing it properly, he was a man who would take the machete - you know, the back of the machete - and then hit you on the back so hard for you to push-up properly, you know? So, these are some of the instances that proved to me that Jah Spirit is one of the men who were wicked.

  • Who were some of the other men you would classify in this group that you remember?

  • Yes. Of course I remembered, as I said, this fellow - this fellow called Cobra.

  • Did you know his real name?

  • I don't know Cobra's real name, but the point of identity is that Cobra was a Liberian man.

  • How do you know that?

  • He speak Liberian English so much so well.

  • Anybody else that you recall that you would classify in this group?

  • Which group are you talking about? The wicked, or the easy?

  • The group that he referred to as the wicked group; people that were wicked.

  • Who else? Do you remember who else?

  • Who else? Yes, there were people like a man called - I think I mentioned him in my statement, a man called One-Meh-One. One-Meh-One also I can classify him as one of the people who were wicked.

  • Did you say - can you say that name slowly again?

  • How do you spell "may"?

  • M-E-H. I can break it down a bit for you to understand. To my understanding, that name came out of the word one man for one bullet. One man for one bullet, right? And the Liberian people call man Meh. It's like to just break it down One-Meh-One for short. The Liberian people called man - they call man Meh.

  • Who was One-Meh-One?

  • I don't know his real name, but he himself speak Liberian English very well.

  • Where was he - I don't recall if you mentioned him yesterday, but where was he in the context of the events you described?

  • He was part of the group that went to Mamboma. Very tall - I think he was the tallest guy among all of them. He is very tall - very tall - and he was part of the group that went to Mamboma and he was with us. By us I mean the AFRC/RUF group. And in Njaiama Nimikoro also One-Meh-One was with us - us I mean the AFRC/RUF, sorry - that went down to Woama and also he was with us in the camp, the base between Woama and Baima.

  • Why do you classify him into this group of wicked?

  • Yes, as I said my point here the fact is that like One-Meh-One I've never seen him like amputating or killing somebody, right, but he was not - his approach, or his approaches, to mankind in the camp was not good, not favourable I can say, because it's like a simple judgment to my own self. You know, I was actually observing these guys - these guys I mean the AFRC/RUF who captured me. I was actually trying to differentiate them or distinguish some of them who are good. I can tell you for sure Kallay Amara was not a wicked man, you know?

  • Okay.

  • He is sort of a conventional fighter, I can say, because all of his dealings was to fight and fight the enemy, but he was not so wicked with civilian. That I can assure you.

  • Now, the next reference for counsel's benefit is 17307 and moving on to 17308:

  • Now, Mr Witness, yesterday you were talking about a meeting. As you left Njaiama Nimikoro, you said there was a meeting and it occurred with the top AFRC/RUF guys from Koidu. I am referring to lines 8 and 9 on 17307. Do you remember saying that?

  • I remember saying that.

  • Then you were asked who were the names of the top AFRC/RUF guys from Koidu and your response was, "Kallay Amara, Foday Bangura and Jah Spirit, they were the big men among the group I was with". My question to you is who were the top guys from Koidu, if you remember any of them, at this meeting?

  • I do not remember. I was not there at the meeting, of course.

  • I can confirm that I was not in the meeting and all that I heard was from that lady that was with me, Esther Koroma. She was actually giving me all these top information, right? She disclosed to me that there is a meeting going on. Of course, when we arrived in Woama it was observable that the top guys like Kallay Amara I used to see him around in most cases. Kallay Amara, Jah Spirit and Foday Bangura so on and so forth, I would see them frequently around.

  • But for that moment I mean they disappeared, right, so it is kind of proof to me at that time that what Esther told me that they are on a meeting with some of the other officers, commanders from Koidu, you know? But I can say that one of the fellows I used to help, this other Major Amara - there used to be another Major Amara and also Bai Bureh.

  • Do you know Major Amara's full name?

  • Do you know Major --

  • No, I was only hearing the name Major Amara.

  • Now, after this meeting occurred - and this is 17308 lines ten and 11 - you said that, "Jah Spirit was in charge of that instruction. He came with instruction. He made an announcement and said 'Some of you have to go down to Baima end. We are going to have a base there'". Do you remember saying that?

  • Yes, I remembered saying that.

  • You said, "Jah Spirit ... he came with instruction". If you know, who did he come with instruction from? Who was the instruction from?

  • Well, I don't know. I can't say he came with the information and the information was from a particular person, but all I can say is that the information came from the meeting. It was an order from what they decided in the meeting, right? That was exactly what he was saying that we have to deploy, we have to make another deployment down Baima, and everything was clear to us that they were about to be deployed themselves because of they are afraid of the security situation around.

  • You said all you can say is that the information came from the meeting. How do you know that that information came from the meeting?

  • He came and made the announcement, right? He said, "We are going to redeploy our men", and everything was like a history thing. He said, "We are going to redeploy our men". And, of course, I combined this information that came from Esther that indeed this announcement this man is going to make, or is making now, is from what they have decided from the meeting.

  • Okay. Now, the next reference is 1731 --

  • Before you go on to that, Mr Santora, who is the "he" that came and made the announcement? It's the answer on my page 9, line 17, which starts, "He came and made the announcement".

  • Who made that announcement, Mr Witness?

  • Now the next reference, sorry, is 17310 and it's lines 21 and 22:

  • Mr Witness, you said something yesterday that I want to ask you to explain. You were referring to the children of the group and you said, "What happens in most cases is that these children are attached to each of the men, referring to the AFRC/RUF men". What do you mean when you say, "These children are attached to each of the men"?

  • As I said earlier on, right, when we were in - when we were taken to Njaiama Nimikoro and from Mamboma after the second capture, right, then this Bai Bureh guy came and made some statements, sort of address to us, after which I mentioned the AFRC/RUF guys were making a selection among the civilians, right? It's like an interest. If you have an interest on somebody you say, "Okay, I like this person". For myself, I can give an example of myself. Somebody came and said - he asked me a question. There was one guy also I can remember, whose name was called Emmanuel. I think I mentioned that name on the statement, you know some of these names - well, I gave the statement three years back when I was in second year university and so it's now that I'm actually recalling some of the names again.

    Now I mentioned in my statement I think there was another Emmanuel in the group, one guy called Emmanuel. He came to me and asked me a question. He say, "Man, what can you do?" I think I said something like, "I'm a technical man. I can do a lot of technical things". He was admonishing me saying that he - I am talking of Emmanuel saying, "Well, you come and help us. You will assist us in all our technical problems here". He was actually saying that. It was as if he was really interested in me.

    And in my statement also I remembered saying that there was a bit of confusion between Esther's group, because Esther's group Daddy Lumba, they selected me to be in the house where their boss, Foday Bangura, in my grandfather's house. They selected me to be there. There was another instance that Jah Spirit came for me. Jah Spirit grew some interest in me and said, "Give me this guy. I want this guy to be with me". I think I went there for a day, I remembered. Jah Spirit succeeded in taking me away from Esther's group, right. And I stayed with Jah Spirit for a day. And Esther's group - of course Esther was a bitter disappointed. He then mobilised another sort of - I mean a meeting with the guys and said, "Please, this guy should come back to me".

  • I don't mean to intervene, but what I was asking you about was these children?

  • Yes. What I'm trying to say, I'm trying to make clear that they were making selections based on what they were interested on, right. What they interested in. If they are interested in taking somebody - looking on somebody and said, "I like this person to be with me" and so the children were attached, what I meant, to each of these commanders or the AFRC/RUF guys. They were attached there, based on their sort of initial interest that they had.

  • Whose initial interest?

  • The AFRC/RUF. It's like an initial interest that they had from the - "they had" referring to the AFRC/RUF. That they had for the children, you know, when they were captured, when the children were captured.

  • Do you know interest for what reason?

  • Well, I can't give a comprehensive response to that.

  • Okay. That's fine. Now, the next reference, counsel, is 17329. Yesterday you were referring to this incident with this individual called Hosana and you talked about the letter you wrote, that he requested that you write, and then you were referring to a conversation and something he said to you in your presence and this is at lines 14 through 17. And you said as part of what he said was this, you said:

    "That was the statement he was saying. He was saying that categorically, 'The civilians will suffer. We will suffer the civilians and then they will finally call us to the table'. That was what he categorically said I can remember."

    What did you mean by that? What did you understand that to mean?

  • Okay. It's not a matter of I understand what he means, right. I was actually saying what this guy was saying. It's like quoting exactly. Well, I can say I can't quote exactly what they were saying at that time because of the memory, it's a long time, you know, but the sense, I can remember the sense that was coming out of their statements, right. And he said that one. I can remember he was saying that, "We are going to suffer the civilians".

  • What do you mean "we will suffer the civilians"?

  • The AFRC/RUF men, he was referring to themselves, the AFRC/RUF group fighting against ECOMOG, and Tejan Kabbah's government.

  • Okay. If I can break it down for you, let me just take an effort to do it. To my own understanding, I can say he was actually - they were like - they saw themselves being defeated by the ECOMOG and the AFRC guys, the Tejan Kabbah's government, right. "They" referring to the AFRC/RUF men. They saw themselves being defeated. So they were making - all the AFRC/RUF men were making all effort to present a case to the outside world that there should be a kind of - I mean a one to one settlement. One to one settlement, I mean they must come to the table and settle everything, instead of fighting or sending the ECOMOG troops to fight them, to fight the AFRC/RUF men.

    My understanding to - because that will actually predict what sort of statement he was saying. My understanding was they were really preaching out or saying out the message - sending out the message to ECOMOG and the Tejan Kabbah's government for them to know that if you want everything to come to an end - if the Tejan Kabbah's government and ECOMOG want everything to come to an end then the fighting is not the solution. In fact that was the reason why they decided to - he decided - he asked me to write the letter, if you can remember the content of the letter, that was why he, Hosana, asked me to write the letter and that's the reason why they amputated that man's arms. That amputated that man's and the letter was put in his pocket.

  • I want to just make sure I understand. Forgetting what - and I apologise for my question earlier because I think I may have confused you. Forgetting what you understood this mean, I want to make sure I understand what Hosana said exactly. Because I said you - quoting yesterday, you said that he said, "The civilians will suffer. We will suffer the civilians". Now what does that phrase mean "we will suffer the civilians"? What does that mean, "we will suffer the civilians"?

  • It's like for example what happened, right. They were just victimising people. Like, they amputated somebody. "They" referring to the AFRC/RUF. Hosana at that time amputated somebody.

  • Did Hosana explain this or are you - just exactly what he said again - what did he say?

  • That was exactly. He never went into detail. I could not remember.

  • My memory will not take me back there, but he was for brief - in brief he was saying that, "We are going to suffer" - "The civilians will suffer". If I can say it in Krio, "Di sivilyan dem go sofa." That was what he was saying in Krio, "The civilian them go suffer." "If dem se dem go fet wi na di sivilyan dem go sofa." That was what exactly he said.

  • Okay. The next reference is 17331.

  • Mr Santora, I don't know what we are going to do about the utterances in Krio. Are they relevant in your view?

  • I think based on the assertion that the witness can speak Krio, I think it would be appropriate for the witness to translate what he just said in Krio to English.

  • Because you didn't ask him to do that.

  • The phrase you just said in Krio, Mr Witness, what was it again?

  • The meaning in English is - the Krio word is the "civilians then go suffer".

  • Yes, "then go suffer". And the meaning is the civilians will suffer.

  • Thank you, Justice Sebutinde:

  • Did you also say another sentence?

  • Yes, yes. The first one is, "If they say in the fight we" - "If they say in the fight we", in English is if they, the ECOMOG and Tejan Kabbah's government, say they will fight us then the civilians will suffer.

  • That's the complete interpretation of what he was saying.

  • Thank you, Mr Witness. Yesterday, and this is 17331, lines 25 to 28. Yesterday, Mr Witness, you were referring to what you heard of Operation No Living Thing. Do you remember speaking about this?

  • And you said:

    "The Operation No Living Thing was actually launched by this AFRC/RUF group. But, as I said, it's a combination of few men from our side, few men from the other side."

    What did you mean when you said "the other side"? Where are you referring to?

  • Come again. Come again, please. I did not get you clearly.

  • Yesterday in referring to this Operation No Living Thing, you said:

    "The Operation No Living Thing was actually launched by this AFRC/RUF group. But, as I said, it's a combination of few men from our side, few men from the other side."

    Do you remember saying that?

  • Yes, I remembered. What exactly happened, as I was saying yesterday, there were different AFRC/RUF groups, in different location. The group that I was with, the AFRC/RUF group that I was with, was not the only group in the whole Kono District.

  • So in this statement when you said "our side", who were you referring to exactly?

  • Referring to - "other side" is referring to the other AFRC group, RUF group that were located in some other places.

  • Okay. And do you know some of those other locations?

  • Woama. There were some men who were in Woama. We left some guy there, some AFRC/RUF men there. And on the way between Woama and Koidu there were some other deployments. And far behind Njaiama Sewafe there - well, to what I heard, I knew that Colonel Issa was there, Colonel Issa and his men.

  • Were where? Where was that?

  • They were around the Njaiama Sewafe area. And also I understood there were also some other men at a town called - there is another town called Gandorhun. I think I mentioned that in my statement

  • Where is Gandorhun?

  • Gandorhun is after Woama, going down. It's like - I can't remember the direction, but it's behind Woama.

  • Now yesterday you spoke about, after your training, some operations. I just want to clarify the sequence of those operations. First, you spoke about an operation that you participated in towards the Kenema end. Do you remember that?

  • Yeah, I remember that.

  • And then you spoke about an operation in reference to a BBC journalist that you did not participate in. Do you remember that?

  • Which of those came first?

  • The one with the BBC.

  • Okay. You also yesterday said that just after this operation - I'm sorry, counsel, it's 17340, and that's lines 19 through 24. And you said that after this BBC journalist operation, you said: "Well, I want you to know that after the operation they brought some diamonds, right. I didn't see the diamonds but they asked me to write something on the report book. They had something called a report book. They asked me to write a report on that book as an evidence."

    First of all, you said that, "After the operation they brought some diamonds, right". How do you know that?

  • They said it to me. In fact that was written on the statement, on the report book.

  • Who said that to you?

  • The book was brought to me by Amara. Amara brought the book to me. It was a ledger, right. And the operation was carried out around the Njaiama Sewafe end. Of course I mentioned it yesterday that I was put in charge of the guard detail, right. So I was really detailing people, the AFRC/RUF group, on guard. That I can remember.

    In fact the day the men returned, the AFRC/RUF men who were sent for this operation, the day they returned, I was on duty. They fired three shots and then we exchanged the password. Of course I mentioned in my statement that there were passwords, sort of codes, in the form of codes been given to us, right. And --

  • It's with regards to this - to what Amara told you.

  • And, Mr Santora, which of the two Amara's are we talking about here?

  • Kallay Amara. Kallay Amara.

  • Thank you, Justice Sebutinde.

  • What exactly did Kallay Amara tell you?

  • Kallay Amara I am told - of course, I got the story before Kallay Amara brought the book for report. It usually happens whenever there is an operation I will have one story from one person, I will hear another story from another person and so on and so on and so forth. So I got the information from the men who went for the operation before Kallay Amara and the next morning he came with a book. He said, "My friend, come and write something for me", and then he asked me to write that they had an operation along the Njaiama Sewafe highway and he said a lot of ECOMOG officers were killed, I wrote that, and six pieces of diamonds - six pieces of diamonds - were found in the possession of these ECOMOG officers and that was the closing off.

  • And what kind of book was this?

  • It's a ledger. It's a ledger. I can remember it's a ledger. A kind of a big ledger.

  • Just for the record, the witness indicated the size of the ledger as being approximately:

  • Can you just quickly do that again?

  • The length about 40 or 60 pages. 40 or 60 pages.

  • That was I would estimate 30 centimetres by 15 centimetres, if counsel would stipulate to that.

  • Mr Griffiths, do you agree both the demonstration and assessment?

  • I agree.

  • Finally, Mr Witness, yesterday, before the end of the day, you were referring to an operation in which prior to that operation there was - I am sorry, counsel. It is 17341 and 42. Prior to that operation 61 of you were selected and you referred to this operation as "Clear the way". Do you remember that?

  • Yes, I remember that.

  • And you said that prior to this operation there was an instruction from Kallay Amara saying that, "He said cut 100 hands. He said cut the 100 hands and then I want you to put these arms in a bag and bring them to me"?

  • Not Kallay Amara that said that.

  • I think I made it very clear that it was Major Amara. But that was the time I remembered that there was another man called Major Amara.

  • You are correct and I apologise for that. Do you remember speaking about that yesterday?

  • Yes, I remember that.

  • Now, you said - where was this operation to take place?

  • It was a place called Tefeya. It was a place called Tefeya. I don't know it. I have never been there. That was my first time for me to go there - that would have been my first time for me to go there, but unfortunately we did not arrive there.

  • Do you know why the operation was called "Clear the way"?

  • I categorically described the reason why they called for that operation, because I said we went on a meeting and they explained. Kallay Amara and Major Amara explained to us the reason for the operation, right? I think I mentioned that yesterday that the guy was saying - Major Amara was saying - that the ECOMOG - I can go over that again, can I?

  • You can go over it, yes.

  • The ECOMOG troops were advancing. They advanced towards Koidu and, of course, they were in charge or they were in control of Koidu Town, right? And from Koidu Town no deployment of ECOMOG troops was found except between - it's like the location of ECOMOG troop was between Makeni and Koidu Town. They realised that, or they said that. And Major Amara was saying that, "Now, we want to draw attention of the ECOMOG troop that is in Koidu to somewhere else so that we will have other people, other men" - referring to the AFRC/RUF group - "to attack the ECOMOG troops who were - or to engage the ECOMOG troops who were in Koidu". So he was describing everything like, "We have to go to Tefeya and there are a lot of civilians". They got the information, the information came to them from where I don't know, but he said, "We got the information that there are a lot of civilians in Tefeya and businesses are going on there. People are coming in there with food stuffs and a lot of things".

  • Who was saying this?

  • Major Amara. "People are there. A lot of business is going on there and food stuffs - food items - are there and so let's go and attack the place". And he said that, I remember, that he said, "Cut the hands of 100 people and put it in a bag". I mentioned I really remembered him saying that. He said, "Put it in a bag and bring it to me as an evidence that you did it". And he said - in fact, I said it was a combination. It is like they were calling the operation - the AFRC/RUF group was calling or Major Amara was calling the operation - as Operation Clear the Way and Operation No Living Thing. I said that yesterday.

  • So, then, do you know where the other group or other men were supposed to come from to engage ECOMOG in Koidu Town?

  • I don't know, but of course I knew that there were men who were around. I mentioned that yesterday that there were men who were constantly around the perimeters of Koidu Town. And then, of course, Bai Bureh was there. Bai Bureh was really engaging these men in Koidu Town. I mentioned that earlier on.

  • Mr Santora, these two operations were they one and the same operation, Clear the Way and Operation No Living Thing?

  • Did you understand the question?

  • Yes, I understand the question. It is one and the same. It is both of them as one operation. It is like one group, one AFRC/RUF group, carrying out these two operations. It's like the ideology. Like the ideology they wanted to make it clear that you are going on Operation Clear the Way, as I described what they meant Clear the Way, and No Living Thing. He made it clear that, "You are the mission". He was actually emphasising on the key point of the mission. Major Amara was emphasising on the key point of the operation is that you are going to --

  • The question I asked was whether the two names of the operations actually referred to one operation practically?

  • Is that correct?

  • Now did you yourself actually participate in this last operation you've been describing, Clear the Way?

  • Operation Clear the Way, I did not participate in the operation. I went with them. I was selected.

  • I was selected by Foday Bangura.

  • And what happened?

  • What happened? We were on the way and we were heading for Tefeya, but the route was to be that we were to pass through Njaiama Nimikoro. Of course we knew of ECOMOG being in Koidu Town and so the AFRC/RUF guys were actually avoiding using the main road - the main highway - between Njaiama Sewafe highway, Bumpe, Motema and Koidu. They avoided using these routes, so we used a bypass, the same route that we used when we were coming from - when we were coming, I'm talking of myself and the AFRC/RUF group - Njaiama Nimikoro to Baima and Woama. We used the same route and we were approaching - well, we, referring to the AFRC/RUF group approaching - Njaiama Nimikoro and the route was to be Njaiama Nimikoro, Bumpe and across a small river and then we got to Tefeya according to what they, the AFRC/RUF guys, were describing. We reached one town or village to Njaiama Nimikoro and we had three or four men who were in front of us. Like they go - three or four AFRC/RUF men who were in front of us they go ahead of us and check there is no problem or everything is okay.

  • How many of them are you by the way?

  • 61 at this point. And who is leading this group that is moving?

  • Foday Bangura was in charge of the - he was put in charge. He was actually commissioned by Major Amara that this is the commander for the operation.

  • Since you are speaking of this, let me ask you for a timeframe for this. When was this happening?

  • This happened about 8/9 May.

  • Of what year?

  • If I remember, the day I surrendered or gave myself up to ECOMOG was on the 10th.

  • Okay, so this was approximately 8 or 9 May?

  • So, what happened then?

  • So we had a small confusion - we I am referring to myself and the AFRC/RUF group - of where to pass and where to go through and where not to go through. Eventually the place was dark in the evening and we eventually was able to reach very close - I am referring to myself and the AFRC/RUF group - to Njaiama Nimikoro, but before you reach Njaiama Nimikoro there is a small hill. There is a bridge. After you pass the bridge, if you are coming from a place called Njala - there is one Njala. Around the Njaiama Nimikoro Chiefdom there is a town called Njala. If you are coming from Njala and you are going to pass through another town called Canaan, and then there is a bridge. After you pass a bridge there is a small hill that you climb and then there you are in Njaiama Nimikoro. So, what happened, the ECOMOG troops that were - in fact, let me just explain what happened. A few days before this operation a few men were sent on a food-finding mission to this Njaiama Nimikoro area, a few men referring to --

  • Before I let you get too far I just want to make sure we don't get too far away from two spellings of towns that were mentioned that are not spelt on the record at this point. Canaan, do you know how to spell that?

  • Canaan. C-A-N-A-A-N.

  • What was the next place you said, Njala?

  • Njala, the same spelling as that Njala in the Bo area. It's N-J-A-L-A.

  • Okay. So go ahead, continue.

  • Yeah. Few men were sent on a food-finding mission. They went to Njaiama Nimikoro Town. A few days, about three days before that happened, they went there.

  • Who were these men; who were the men?

  • Some of the AFRC/RUF men were sent on a food-finding mission. They went to Njaiama Nimikoro, the AFRC/RUF men went to Njaiama Nimikoro, and there was nobody there. It was a ghost town so they came up with the report that nobody is living in Njaiama Nimikoro, the place is a ghost town. I am talking "they" the AFRC/RUF men. So we were going with the intention that we would finding nobody in Njaiama Nimikoro. We, myself, referring to myself, and the AFRC/RUF men. We were going with the intention that we would find nobody in Njaiama Nimikoro, not knowing that a day ago or so, there had been a deployment of the number 5 battalion of the Nigerian army, NAMBATT-5, and they were in charge of that Njaiama Nimikoro and the highway between Njaiama Nimikoro to Kenema. So whether they got the information, "they" I am referring to whether the ECOMOG troop that was deployed in Njaiama Nimikoro got the information that we were coming or not, but exactly what happened, we were about to climb after the bridge, immediately after the bridge we, referring to myself and the AFRC/RUF men that captured me, we were about to climb the hill and then immediately we heard somebody saying, "Halt", loud shout "halt" and every one of us, every one of us, referring to myself and the AFRC/RUF group that I was moving with at that time, 61 of us, we felt shock. We were not expecting that kind of thing. And it was a tolerance, according to what the ECOMOG troops informed me later, that they gave a tolerance.

  • A what, I am sorry?

  • Tolerance. Tolerance. For us to surrender.

  • Explain the word you just used.

  • Tolerance is like - it was like an allowance, they created an allowance. Otherwise they would have just - the ECOMOG troops would have just started open fire on us, right. Firing on us. But they tried to halt us and see whether we will respond by - whether "we" referring to myself and the ECOMOG and the AFRC/RUF group would somehow present a case to surrender. But after a while, this fellow, Foday Bangura said, "Mek wi fet di man dem", pan Krio, "Let us fight the men". That we are referring to the AFRC/RUF group that I was with at that time, to fight the ECOMOG troops or whatever person or - because we never knew whether it was ECOMOG or Kamajors, right. But it exactly happened as that, as I said.

    So they started - Foday Bangura started firing his weapon and then few other men - they were not actually firing towards a particular direction, they were just firing like that. You know, like Foday was very close to me because he asked me to be his bodyguard, so he was just firing up the hill, the air.

  • Just for the record the witness is --

  • He was firing up the air, so I really realised that they were like this and immediately in a while the ECOMOG troops then noticed that something is about to happen, we have to flush these guys off. Referring "guys" the AFRC/RUF. So they themselves started responding. Where I was at that time I really - it was a dream.

  • Okay. I am going to interrupt for a moment. Just for the record when the witness was describing Foday Bangura shooting up in the air he was holding his left arm up in the air and his right arm at his side. So what happened then after this?

  • Yes. So the ECOMOG troops then started responding. They themselves started firing their weapons which was very different to my hearing, you know, because they were firing RPGs. I saw --

  • Where were they situated? Where were they firing from?

  • They were firing from Njaiama Nimikoro end towards the Njala end we came from, right. They were at the entrance of Njaiama Nimikoro. The ECOMOG troops were at the entrance of Njaiama Nimikoro, pointing their weapons away from Njaiama Nimikoro towards the Njala end that we were coming from. "We" referring to myself and the AFRC group that I was with.

    And all of a sudden I fell on the ground, right. Because I had nothing to do. I was carrying the G3 weapon and I dropped it. I never fired my own weapon. I dropped it because it was a shock for everybody. It's like we have to run away, because this firing power is - "we" I am referring to myself and the AFRC group that I was with. So I had no options, not to resist or not to do anything. Rather, to flee.

    So I dropped the weapon on the ground. I fell on the ground. In fact the shirt I was wearing was like a bright colour. So I thought this shirt is somehow visible in the dark. So I have to remove it. So I removed the shirt and started crawling, right. I started crawling on the floor, on the ground. And then I went off the road, I went in the bushes and the firing was so heavy by the ECOMOG guys. They actually fired all sorts of weapons. Even cannon bombs were fired on us that night. Can you imagine?

    And then I found my way going down a particular swamp. The swamp - I even wanted to go down deep into the swamp, but I struggled myself. In fact I was putting on a boot and one of the boot left in the swamp, got left in the swamp, so I was walking one boot on and a bare foot. And I struggled myself out of the swamp and then going - I don't know - I didn't know where I was going.

  • Where were the rest of the men you were with?

  • In fact none of us - I could not even recognise at that time any one of them near me. But the firing was going on, I heard screaming, I heard a lot of screaming, and really they were being injured greatly.

  • Who was being injured?

  • So you said then before that this was about a day before you surrendered. Is that correct?

  • Yes, it's the day I surrendered.

  • Who did you surrender to?

  • To ECOMOG. What happened was after the fighting - it was a whole night fact. This happened about 8 o'clock in the evening. And the fight went for the rest of the night until about 4 o'clock in the morning, right. There were heavy rainfall - the fighting start and then about one hour then the rain began to come. We had a heavy rainfall.

    So all my experience in the forest was under the rain, you know. So I started going but I didn't know - I was actually listening to where the guns were coming from and whatever resistance, so I was going away from the gun firing, right. And I experienced myself being somewhere. I really got confused where to go. I don't know where to go, because there were bombs being thrown everywhere. Every here and there, you know. I could not even imagine if there is a bomb to be thrown on my head or whatever. So I was moving, just moving like that and I asked God. I said an area - I asked God - I pray, I said, "God, show me where to go" and I saw a white - okay, if I can go into detail.

    I saw a white butterfly with a colour like this light ahead of me, so bright. It came around me and it was going around my body and then I saw it later going somewhere. It was going and rest on one leaf and then I would follow it and then it would get up again, go to another and I would follow. That was the way I go and go and go. Finally I arrived at a clear place, a very clear place, and I realised myself being away from where the firing was taking place.

    So it was about 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock in the morning, so I just - because all of my body - all over my body wounds and wounds. Everywhere pains. I was actually feeling the whole - you know. So I was really exhausted. Exhausted. So I decided to just lay down. It was like my knees, I could not lie on my body because everywhere are wounds, so I just placed my knee on the floor and I make my arms like this and I rested for a while, you know.

    So in the morning, when the place was getting clear, I stood up and I started walking. I saw a footpath and I started walking. So I started approaching. I heard the vehicles going up and down in the time forest. They were going up and down in the forest. So I heard the sound coming from afar. I started approaching this sound. Then I saw the roofs. I began to see some roofs, right, the zinc of the houses. Then I realised that I'm approaching the town.

    So approaching the town I heard these men saying something, you know, somebody talking, and I could realise this language is one of the Nigerian language, right. And I then said to myself, "Ah, these are the ECOMOG people and I have to go and surrender myself". Then I came closer to them, just about a distance - it's twice or thrice the distance between these two walls, right. Very close. I was in hiding and --

  • Just for the record you were pointing to the two walls at either end of the courtroom. In terms of at the length of the courtroom.

  • And then one man was telling me, "Go and surrender yourself" and the other one saying, "Hey, if you go there they will kill you. Just find a way. Go back in the bush and find a way".

  • Who said that to you?

  • Somebody - you know it's like an inner man; conviction. Conviction was coming to me, "Go and give yourself up" and the inner man - somebody was telling me, my inner man, "No, go. Just find a way. Go to the bush".

    So eventually I got the urge to move and I came out of the bush and said, "Good morning, sirs". Exactly that was what. In fact my voice was so hoarse that I could not even speak properly, everything gone. So I said, "Good morning, sirs. I'm a civilian, sir. I want to come and be with you". That was exactly what I said, I could remember - I can remember. "I am a civilian, sir" and the guys, you know, they themselves were afraid. They held on to their weapons and said, "Who are you?" And they said, "Sit on the floor" and I sat on the floor. Then they approached me with their weapons. They were coming towards me like this.

  • Just for the record the witness, in explaining when he approached these individuals, put both hands up in the air, from ECOMOG. And then also for the record, in describing ECOMOG asking who he was, put his left hand out and his right hand to himself:

  • And they approached me and - they approached me and then they were pointing their weapon at me. Then I said, "I'm a civilian". But, fortunately, if I could refer again, I think I mentioned an area where in Mamboma I left my ID card, my technical institute ID card. I was doing a telecom engineering course in the Freetown Technical Institute. I had the ID in my possession and also my secondary school ID card. I used to keep all these cards in my wallet. I had my secondary school - I attended the Albert Academy secondary school. I had my technical institute ID card and my secondary school ID card. I had them with me in Mamboma.

    By the time I was about to go and take my shower I left all my - you remember I said I left all my belongings in the bag and the bags were taken away. I mean I did not recover them any longer, not until when I was with the rebels, referring to the AFRC/RUF guys, after the training, you know. So after the training we got used to each other. We were, I mean, having good company, good conversation with each other. You know, kind of a friendship exist between all of us, right.

    So there was one day somebody came to me. One young RUF/AFRC boy came to me said, "Emmanuel, I saw your picture somewhere". I said, "What?" You know I just dreamed - you know, I saw it impossible. I said, "How can you see my picture? Where? We don't have a camera here or whatever. How can you see my picture?" I said, "It's not me. It's somebody else". He said, "I am telling you the truth. I saw your picture somewhere". Then I said, "Okay, now go and show me where you saw my picture". He said, "I will not because I saw the picture somewhere else, in one of our colleague's bag", referring to the AFRC/RUF men. "I saw it in one of our colleague's bag". And I convinced him and said, "Please, please, please". You know, it becomes something very interesting to me. I said, "Please go and show me where you saw my picture". And then he decided to go and take - not even show me, he decided to go and take this picture.

  • And what was it?

  • And what he brought to me was the ID cards. Both of my technical institute ID card and my secondary school ID card, right. He brought these and you know I was really happy to see my ID cards then. So since then I was having these ID cards with me. Even to that time the ECOMOG guys were threatening me, "Who are you? Identify yourself". So I took off these ID cards and said, "Look at my ID cards. I am civilian. I was in the bush".

  • By the way, just to clarify, where is this happening, this ECOMOG --

  • It happens in Njaiama Nimikoro. Another end of Njaiama Nimikoro. It's the end approaching to Bumpe.

  • Right. It's the other part of Njaiama Nimikoro, the end approaching to Bumpe.

  • So I didn't even know in fact that that was Njaiama Nimikoro by then, because that particular end I have never been there. It was later when I was brought to the centre of Njaiama Nimikoro I realised that it's Njaiama Nimikoro.

  • So I took off this ID card and then showed the guys. They were observing it. "Okay. Well, come up, come up, come up". So one guy was in front and the other was behind me. They accompanied me. They said, "Okay, let's take you to our top officers". They took me to a nearby house and there was a waiting vehicle. Then they placed me at the back of the vehicle and there was a dead body. One guy that was with us, he also was a trainee. He also was a trainee and he was dead. He was at the back of that vehicle, right. So I was the second, but I was alive. In fact he was fired at this side.

  • Just for the record the witness pointing is his left eye.

  • He was fired this side and he was put at the back of the vehicle.

  • What do you mean by "he was fired at this side"?

  • I saw the wound and the blood coming out, but not much blood, but I saw the deep wound and of course the state of the condition of the guy was - I mean he was dead.

  • Just correcting the record, you mentioned the witness indicating his left eye. It was in fact his right eye that he was indicating.

  • I apologise. That's correct.

  • Mr Santora, do we have the time frame for this fighting between the ECOMOG and the troops that the witness was with.

  • I believe he did say it, but I can ask him again:

  • Just again in terms of sequence, this fighting you described between the ECOMOG and your group, do you remember the time when this happened?

  • It happened the 9th night to the 10th morning.

  • And then the description of these events you are describing now, the surrender to ECOMOG, when is this happening?

  • It's on the 10th. It is on that same day, I can continue.

  • Okay. It was on that same day I was brought to - I mean, to the centre of Njaiama Nimikoro. I then realised - in fact I saw a lot of civilians in one field. There is a big field, you know. A lot of civilians with their sticks, you know, raising their hands up. They were shouting up and down and then eventually the guys took me off the vehicle and then they dropped down the body of this dead guy. As I referred to he was part of the trainees, people trained by the AFRC/RUF men. So it was very, very, very - it was a bad experience anyway, because the civilians were approaching me, "Give us this guy. Give us this guy. We want to kill him alive. We want to bury him alive".

  • Who was --

  • The civilians in Njaiama Nimikoro. All of them, their sticks were up. All of them. Everybody shouting, holding - I could not even imagine some of the things that they held, but they were holding objects. "Give us this guy. Give us this guy. We want to bury him alive".

  • Who were they referring to?

  • They were referring to me. They were referring to me. They took me to a white building.

  • Who took you to a white building?

  • The ECOMOG officers that brought me in the vehicle, they took me to a white building on foot. After coming down from the vehicle it's just a few yards to a white building and I could see that they were top officers. To what I realised their uniforms and their appearances, these are the top officers of the ECOMOG troop. Then they asked me to sit on the floor.

    There also there was this fellow, this Kamajor guys. They themselves was - they were pressing and pressing. "Man, you don't need to ask a lot of questions. Just hand over this guy to us".

  • Who was saying that?

  • The Kamajors people. The Kamajor and the hunter militia in general.

  • To who? Who was saying --

  • They were saying referring to the - they were saying that - they were convincing the ECOMOG. The ECOMOG guys were a bit - they were exercising some conventional principles. Like they want to interrogate - properly interview me to know whether I am really, I mean, somebody who needs to be, I mean, punished or whatever. But these guys don't want to hear. At that time they don't want to hear anything except to kill me.

  • Who are these guys?

  • "They" referring to the Kamajors and the civilians themselves. They wanted to kill me at that time. I mean, I prayed somebody else would have said something - experienced, I mean, or saw what was actually happening. I was at the point of death. I was really at the point. In fact without the civilians even laying hands on me, my appearance, you know - my physical - it's like I was dying. No health, no energy. I was really bony.

  • Okay. So what eventually happened then?

  • Mr Witness, are you all right? Mr Witness, do you want to have a break?

    We will adjourn temporarily to allow the witness to recover his composure. I've asked for someone from WVS to intervene. As soon as he is ready to come back if we can be notified. I will adjourn the Court temporarily.

  • [Break taken at 10.42 a.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 11.30 a.m.]

  • I did indicate we would reconvene at this time to try and update ourselves on how the witness is. I am sure the Prosecution has not had any contact so I will therefore ask if - sorry, is the accused - he isn't here. I apologise.

  • Madam President, during the break we received some information from the Court Management office and Mr Taylor was taken back --

  • -- and now he is being brought out and Mr Griffiths was consulting with him.

  • I apologise for not being in court.

  • That is quite all right. I unfortunately, because of the layout of the court, I don't always see Mr Taylor and didn't appreciate he wasn't there. I will restate that I did indicate we would reconvene at this time to find out how the witness is. As I am taking it that the Prosecution would not have had a contact with him, I will ask if Court Management has any information, as I note the witness is not on the stand. Could you assist, please?

  • Your Honours, we have just received an email from the counsellor and she has informed us that the witness is still distressed and she is requesting maybe to start at noon, 12 noon.

  • Thank you.

  • [The Trial Chamber conferred]

    Mr Santora, the witness is your witness and have you - do you wish to express a view in the light of the report received?

  • Madam President, the Prosecution is in your hands at this point in terms of how you want to proceed. We just received this news as well and so deferring to the Bench as to what they think - what you think is the appropriate course at this point, given the time right now.

  • Mr Griffiths, do you wish to say anything?

  • Madam President, we adopt the same view. Of course it would have been good to have concluded this witness's testimony today, because I anticipate I will be no more than an hour or so in cross-examination and, hopefully, if we resume at 12, depending on how long my learned friend has in-chief we may still be able to conclude the witness today which would, I am sure everybody would agree, would be desirable.

  • Yes, I can see your point, Mr Griffiths.

  • And just for your information too and for counsel's information I literally have two or three questions left and anticipate no more than five to ten minutes left in the direct examination.

  • Thank you for that helpful advice, counsel.

  • Madam Court Officer, is there a guarantee that by 12 noon the witness will be composed enough to return, or is this merely a wish on the part of WVS?

  • Your Honours, it is just a wish on the part of WVS.

  • [Trial Chamber conferred]

  • We accept the indications of counsel and of Court Management. We will review the situation at 12 noon. We are obviously conscious of the welfare of the witness and the duty of the Court to the welfare of the witness and we will make a decision in the light of his situation at that time. So we will again adjourn until 12 noon. Please adjourn court.

  • [Break taken at 11.35 a.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 12.00 p.m.]

  • Now, Mr Santora, please proceed.

  • Thank you, Madam President:

  • Mr Witness, are you feeling okay now?

  • I am okay.

  • Okay. I will just ask you a few more questions. You were describing when you brought yourself to the ECOMOG. Did you eventually surrender to ECOMOG?

  • Okay. Now at this point I would like again the map to be shown to the witness that was shown before. Okay, Mr Witness, do you see the map in front of you?

  • Yes, I can see it very clearly.

  • Now, earlier you talked about several operations and I just want to have you mark on the map two of those operations in terms of the direction you headed and in which direction those operations occurred. The first operation you referred to was an operation towards the Kenema end. Do you recall that?

  • Yes.

  • Can you take a - and I am going to actually ask, take a highlighter and just from where you left at the base between Baima and Woama indicate the direction you left towards for this operation?

  • This operation like the first operation --

  • The first operation, I can show you the direction we took for the first operation that I got involved in. You remember I told you about the first operation that Foday Bangura asked me to be a bodyguard for him.

  • The operation which you described to the Court, yes, that you said towards the Kenema end.

  • We took - from this point, from this point which is the camp between Woama and Baima and we came down to Baima and there is another route that led us to somewhere else, so this was the direction that we took.

  • Can the witness be given a pen that actually works and preferably of a different colour than what is already on the map.

  • I think there is a green one here.

  • Okay, there is a green already here.

  • And if you could just indicate the direction you left up to the point where it exists on the map?

  • We came down this direction to Baima and then we moved just like this direction.

  • Okay, that's fine. Just for the record the witness has indicated a line moving from what has previously been marked as number 9 to a southwest direction and then turning southeast towards at the marking at number 10. Can you please put a number 11 at the end of that arrow. Okay.

    Now the next operation you - another operation you testified about was an operation related to when the 61 of you were going towards - were supposed to go towards Tefeya which was between Bumpe and Njaiama Sewafe. Is that correct?

  • Yes, sir.

  • And you said that you however encountered ECOMOG at Njaiama Nimikoro. Is that correct?

  • So can you just point an arrow as to the direction you went for that operation?

  • We came from the location 9 and then we can came down to Baima also, we came down to Baima, and we moved through the direction we took for the first movement from Njaiama Nimikoro to Woama, so I am going to follow this direction. I am going to follow this direction and we came down to Njala - I informed you of that Njala - and then we approached Njaiama Nimikoro.

  • Okay.

  • Around here we encountered --

  • Put a number 12 at where the encounter occurred. And this is the encounter that you referred to with ECOMOG at Njaiama Nimikoro, is that correct?

  • Just for the record the witness has marked with a blue pen the route taken for the operation he previously described encountering ECOMOG at Njaiama Nimikoro, drawing a line from again number 9 in a southwesterly direction up to approximately Fakoyia and then turning northwest up to what is seen on the map as Tongbodu and then taking again a southwest direction along the line of towards Njaiama Nimikoro and stopping at Njaiama Nimikoro and then marking a number 12 at the location where he had testified to was an encounter with ECOMOG.

  • I am just wondering part of that line is illegible, I think because the pen is not very good.

  • I am sorry. Is it the number - okay:

  • Mr Witness, can you go ahead and sign this map - put your name on this map on the bottom right corner. And today's date can you put, which is 26 September 2008, and please put the letters TF1-459. That's fine. I ask that this map now be marked for identification as MFI-2.

  • This is a one page document, a map showing an extract of an area of Kono province as marked by the witness and it becomes MFI-2.

  • And the map can be taken away now. I have no more questions for this witness.

  • Thank you, Mr Santora. Mr Griffiths, I understand you have carriage of the witness.

  • Yes, I do, Madam President.

  • Mr Bull, you're here in the Hague with your older brother, aren't you?

  • You are present here in The Hague with your older brother, aren't you?

  • And you both travelled to Holland on the same flight last weekend?

  • Yes, we travelled to Holland.

  • And no doubt, being your brother, you shared with him, both at the time and since, the experiences that you had during the period you have described to us?

  • Your question is I shared with him while travelling on the plane?

  • No, no, no, let us take it in stages. It is my fault. At the time when you were finally freed from the clutches of the RUF by ECOMOG, did you tell your family about your experience?

  • Yes, I told my family about my experience.

  • And they shared their experience with you. It is natural, wouldn't you agree?

  • Of course; every one of us shared each other's experiences.

  • So at the time you discussed with your family members naturally the horrendous experience you had had?

  • And during the course of sharing those experiences, do you think that perhaps your account might have become corrupted or influenced by things you were told by others?

  • You are asking me whether my account may have been corrupted --

  • By things told to you by other family members?

  • I don't think that would have occurred in any case. It is of no good for me anyway for me to accept that situation that I have to say my account was corrupted by - no, I don't have --

  • Now we know, or at least from the information provided to me, we know that you first spoke to investigators attached to the Prosecution in late November 2002. Do you recall that?

  • You first spoke to the Prosecution on 30 November 2002. Is that correct?

  • Yes, yes, I first spoke to them, yes.

  • Help us, please; how did they come to your attention?

  • How did they come to my attention?

  • When this happened to me and my experience of my ordeal during the war, of course people know me very well in Freetown. I am more or less popular in Freetown because of my music - I mean my experience with music, you know, my dealings with music, people know me. So the news went around - all around, Emmanuel was captured, Emmanuel was captured, Emmanuel was with the rebels and so on and so forth. In fact, people were saying that I was dead, right, especially the time when I was alone with the AFRC/RUF men people were saying that man is dead. In fact, we are not hearing about him for the past days, months, weeks and so on and so forth. So, when I arrived in Freetown, everywhere people started saying, "Oh, that man has come and it has a very good story of his experience during the war." In fact, one day I was taken by one man of God to his church, you know, one popular church in Freetown, to give a testimony, like, saying thanks to God of what happened to me, right, so everywhere people know very well what happened to me. So in the incident somebody got the information, who were a particular person came to me in my residence at the university, by the name of Louise Taylor, right. She came to me in the university and then, well, she was asking me questions and there she first of all presented a case that there is a court, you know, which is going to be for the war criminals, right, and we - I have to be part of it to be a witness. She asked me. She said, "Are you willing to be a witness?" I said, "Yes, I am willing to be, because I think it is really necessary for me to be a part of putting an end to all of this war in Africa, you know." And I admitted myself, you know, volunteered myself, to be a witness, so we started off with the case then.

  • Thank you. And of course being a devout Christian, I take it, you appreciated when you spoke to them that you needed to tell the truth?

  • And of course everything you told them was indeed the truth?

  • It was the truth. I can confer - I can say that like, for example, most of my statements referring to figures, I am really say - I said things which are like approximation. I was approximating figures, not exact figures, so with that, I mean one cannot say because I said about 100 it is exactly 100 or probably I can be a little bit above 100, 130 is about 100 or so, so I can't remember exact figures and I was not there to count men or exactly. That was not my assignment. It was a war and it was an experience and apart from that I have got my experience for the past years, right? And all my involvement in the university, my calls, a lot of things, I have a lot of things to remember. I may have forgotten numbers. So that I can admit that I was approximating figures, not exactly, so that - I let you know that, please.

  • We fully appreciate that, Mr Bull, that dates and figures might well be imprecise, but in terms of the main events you described --

  • The main event, that is the truth.

  • All of that is true?

  • All of them are true.

  • Thank you very much. Now you would have been about 12 years old when the war started, wouldn't you?

  • When I was, when the war started I was in Freetown.

  • Yes, but you would have been about 12 years old?

  • I was about 12 years old?

  • When the war started?

  • Ah, yes, about then. About then.

  • And you were living in Freetown at the time that the RUF invaded Sierra Leone?

  • Yes, I was in Freetown.

  • And were you attending school?

  • Yes, I was attending school.

  • Now, between 1992 and 1997 when the AFRC coup took place, you were living throughout in Freetown, weren't you?

  • Yes, I was in Freetown.

  • And, no, please, I know it is natural to look at me because I am asking you the questions, but if you could look at the judges, please?

  • Now during that five-year period up until the AFRC coup, how was your life affected by the war whilst you were growing up in Freetown?

  • Well, naturally speaking, when the war started in Freetown or in Sierra Leone as a whole my experience is like I was a small boy. Firstly, I was a small boy. We used to hear of the war here and there. In the provinces people are suffering, people are dead, you know, and eventually that affected our psychology, I can say, right, thinking that something is happening within your locality and people are dying, right? That is the first thing that affected me, right? And again, when the war reached Kono, I was affected by the war because my father was doing a lot of businesses in Kono. My father had a mining company, not even the small, small type of mining activity. He had a very big mining company. He was using plants, washing plants, you know those people who know what mining is. The small, small group they will use something like they call it shaker, right? Small thing shaker, to wash the gravels to get the diamonds, but if somebody is using a washing plant he must have become a rich man, right? For you to buy washing plant you must have become a rich man, so my father was actually doing a big-time mining business. He had money, right. And then he was also doing timber work, right. So, when that happened my father - I mean lost everything and then it reflected on us. By that I mean the Bull family, because by then no better - I mean food to eat and we were going to school, no better lunch, nothing. You know, everything became degraded.

  • Would it be fair to put it this way: That up until the AFRC coup in May 1997, in terms of its physical impact on your life, the war was pretty remote for you and others living in Freetown, wasn't it?

  • I was in Freetown, yes.

  • Yes. I am saying it was - the war was pretty remote in physical terms for you and people living in Freetown, would you agree?

  • I don't - I don't - please, please. Come again. Come again, please.

  • Between 1992 and 1997 you were living in Freetown?

  • And of course you hear on the news of the war affecting other parts of the country, but physically in Freetown you were pretty remote from it, weren't you?

  • Yes, of course.

  • And in fact the first event that took place which kind of affected you was that coup in May 1997, don't you agree?

  • That was - yes, of course.

  • And for about five months after that coup you lived in Freetown under the junta, didn't you?

  • I lived in Freetown, yes.

  • And what was that experience like for those five months or so that you lived there?

  • Social degradation. We had a lot of problems. For example, there were a lot of arms activity going on, like looting, right? I could remember, there was a time, I can remember there was a time there were some gunmen, soldiers, soldiers, right, who came to my father's house. They came to my father's house and they took away some of our belongings, right, forcefully.

  • This is in Freetown?

  • In Freetown it happened. A lot of other things happened like armed robbery was going on and no proper schooling. We would go to school today and then we - suddenly we heard the Alpha Jet moving up and down and then the teachers and principals or whatever they will say, "Okay, please just go home. Everybody go home." So, in terms of security we had a problem.

  • I understand that. And that is why eventually you decided to leave and go to Motema?

  • And when you arrived in Motema --

  • That is not the only reason why I mentioned it in my statement that the reason why I left for Motema was my father was doing these businesses, right, and then - and he was actually counting on one of his sons to be a help mate, right, and so my mother was living in Freetown and the other members of the family were there. We had a big compound house. We have houses in Freetown. So, my mother was in charge of all of these things in Freetown. So, my father saw it - in fact that was one of his communications. He said it in Krio. He said, "Bo yu no go kam mek yu kam ep mi. Can't you come and help me in Kono? If you are not going to school sitting down idly", in fact idleness is number 1 in Freetown by then. We will be in the house in the morning just playing and then the mother will prepare the food, we eat, just like that. Idleness, complete idleness. So my father said, "Okay, for you to sit down, I mean, idling around, just come and help me. Come and let's involve in some activities." That was one of the reasons why I left for Motema.

  • But in any event, when you got there to Kono, the situation there was quite calm, wasn't it?

  • The situation there was quite calm. I can't say it was perfectly calm as normality involved, right, and I mentioned it in my statement also that there were a lot of other dubious activities going on in Kono when I arrived in Kono. For example, I mentioned an area where me and my father were about to go to the mining site. We were about to go to the mining site and on the way we met some few gunmen, you know, who I profess they are the RUF/AFRC group, okay? So, they threatened us and they took our shovel away from us, so these are some of the acts. So one will be there at that time but of course you - the security situation somehow was a bit abnormal.

  • I was merely basing my question on something you told us yesterday, and for the assistance of those opposite page 17196. This is an answer you gave beginning at line 7:

    "I eventually arrived in Motema. I just arrived in Motema. My father took me up to the house. And what was going on, I think the presence of the AFRC and RUF guys were there. They were doing all the mining, but the situation was calm as I could say, you know."

    Do you remember telling us that yesterday?

  • I remember I said that, yes.

  • I'm grateful. Now, I wonder if the witness could be shown, please - and my learned friend has a copy of this - a bundle of statements, typed statements - well, not statements, interview notes recording what you said to the investigators on previous occasions. Do you follow me?

  • And I would like us, please, first of all to go behind divider 1 and I think this can be put on the screen and I am just interested in the top of that page, please. So it's behind divider 1, the second page, and what I would like, please, is could that page be brought down so that we just see the top. I have good reason for that, because there are certain names on that page which I don't want to be broadcast, okay.

  • Perhaps then out of abundance of caution maybe we should give a direction that the page not be broadcast, but be circulated only within the Court. Mr Witness, could you please just take that page off that machine for a moment.

  • Could you please take that bundle of papers off the machine for a moment.

  • No, can we put that page back on the machine, please, Madam Court Manager, because the judges don't have that document.

  • Madam Court Officer, could we ascertain that the Presiding Judge's order has been implemented?

  • Your Honours, the order has been taken and the AV booth are not going to broadcast a copy.

  • What I am interested in, Mr Bull, is what you told the investigators on this occasion, 30 November 2002, about mining. Second line from the top of that page, please:

    "The rebels had certain areas where they allowed civilians to mine and other areas where only rebels were allowed to mine. They had a two pile system, with one pile for the rebel and one for the labour or digger. The rebel would take all the big diamonds."

    Is that true?

  • Exactly, that's true.

  • Now, if we could now please go behind divider 4 and behind that divider you should see a record of an interview conducted with you on 24 and 25 July this year. On that same topic of diamonds in July of this year you told the investigators this at paragraph 6:

    "The witness stated that his father's house, which was the biggest in Motema, was near the police station. There was a kimberlite line, which is a rich belt of diamonds where the rebels were using civilians to mine. Civilians were still allowed to mine other areas on their on, but the rebels would monitor the pits and would take over the mines if they noticed that you were at the stage of washing stones. Once the stones were being washed they created the two pile system. Civilians were also allowed to mine in non-mineral rich areas, but they were still harassed if they found anything."

    And then this:

    "There were a lot of young men who mined for the rebels because they thought it would be a chance to earn money. They did not realise that it was all futile effort until they joined in. The witness knew guys that would go with the rebels to mine but not join them to fight. People were trying any ways to have something to eat or some money because it was a state of emergency. The witness stated he did not see anyone but forced to mine."

    Is that true?

  • That's true, yes.

  • So you never saw anyone forced to mine?

  • No-one.

  • "The rebels would sometimes give the diggers stuff from the looted shops as a motivation to dig. There was no shortage of workers to make the rebels have to force people to stay if they wanted to leave the mines."

    Is that true?

  • Now, in addition to that, there were also businessmen in Mamboma who were trading with the rebels in diamonds, do you remember that?

  • Were there businessmen there in Motema purchasing diamonds from the RUF and the AFRC?

  • Were those Lebanese businessmen?

  • I have never seen a Lebanese man doing that business.

  • So who were they, these diamond merchants who were --

  • I never saw an incident wherein this business actually took place, right. Just like I have never been in that event, witnessing that event, right. I never witnessed that event. But it was a news going on around. If the rebels had diamonds they have to sell it because they don't have money. They don't have money. Some of them want to use money, especially these middle rated diamonds, right. They don't have money, they want to use money, so they will sell it to somebody who has money and then use the money.

  • So there was a trade going on --

  • -- with the rebels selling diamonds to businessmen in the area?

  • That was what was going on. That was what was going on.

  • And was this quite a busy trade, the selling of diamonds to businessmen in the Kono area?

  • Well, I can't say it was a busy trade. I don't know.

  • I ask, you see, because your father was engaged in the mining business, wasn't he, in a big way?

  • Yes, my father, for he - he was selling the diamond to one Maraka man.

  • To an American man?

  • Yes, not American man. There is one type of people we called Maraka man. It's the people from Senegal. A group of people from Senegal.

  • And your father had been selling diamonds to these people - to that person for a long time, had he?

  • Yes, he had been selling diamonds to these people.

  • And even after the coup he was still selling diamonds to these people?

  • Selling diamonds to these people. Yes, selling diamonds.

  • And where were those people based?

  • They were based in Koidu Town.

  • Yes, I see. So it was a regular business going on just as before the war?

  • Yes, there was regular business going on just as before the war.

  • Now, that calm situation in Kono changed once the intervention took place by ECOMOG. And that's what caused the change, the ECOMOG intervention?

  • Yes.

  • And that calm situation in Kono changed as a result of that, yes?

  • And the change came about when the Kamajors and the Donsos came on to the scene?

  • And so far as the Kamajors are concerned, although many people welcomed them, they did some bad things, didn't they? Did they?

  • The Kamajors, although they were welcomed by some people in Kono, they were also responsible for doing some bad things, weren't they?

  • Yeah, of course. I said that in my statement.

  • Exactly. And just to remind you what you said, let's go back again, please, behind divider 1. Let's go back behind divider 1, the first page --

  • Your Honours, please remind counsel to read slowly so we can interpret.

  • Mr Griffiths, sorry to interrupt but the interpreters have asked that you read slowly in order to allow them to interpret for the broadcast.

  • I apologise to the interpreters for going too quickly:

  • The penultimate paragraph on that page, please:

    "We heard the Kamajors were coming to Motema from Tongo Fields. Some villagers went to fetch them with their cars as they were happy the Kamajors were coming."

  • Excuse me, could you move it up so that we can see it. Counsel said the penultimate paragraph. Bring it up so we can see it further. Please proceed, Mr Griffiths.

  • I don't think we are on the same page, Mr Griffiths. Could you please help us.

  • Page 1. It's the first page. Yes, it is the penultimate - that's right. It's this paragraph here:

  • It is the paragraph which begins:

    "The youths in Koidu mobilised to kick out the AFRC/RUF. They killed some AFRC/RUF. The youth also mobilised in Motema, but the rebels went into hiding. We heard the Kamajors were coming to Motema from Tongo Fields. Some villagers went to fetch them with their cars as they were happy the Kamajors were coming. By then the reputation of the Kamajors was not so good in my opinion. I felt that the Kamajors looted people's cars. I saw this happen in Motema. The Kamajors set up a checkpoint in front of my house. They extorted money and food at the checkpoint. I saw them take a bag from a villager."

    Is that true?

  • Yes, I saw them. I saw them, yes.

  • Because basically the Kamajors acted like the rebels, didn't they, looting and killing indiscriminately? That's right, isn't it?

  • That's right. That's right.

  • Mr Witness, I don't know if you appreciate the question. As I understand, this is a question as to whether the Kamajors routinely acted in this way. Do you agree?

  • Okay, can I just say something further. My statement was that I saw the Kamajors taking property from people, right. I saw them taking property. The checkpoint was placed in front of my house, so I can't just generally say they were doing - behaving like the rebels or RUF, but what I saw is what I am saying, that they were doing some of the things that the rebels were doing. Some of the things, yes.

  • Well, just so that we appreciate the basis for my question, let's go behind divider 3, shall we. Behind divider 3 you will find notes of an interview conducted with you on 22 January 2003 and could we please turn to the second page of that statement - of that interview, the last paragraph: "I would like to add that the Kamajors acted like the rebels, looting and killing indiscriminately." Do you see that?

  • "I would like to" - yes, yes, I saw that.

  • Thank you. Could we close that document now, please. Tell me, Mr Bull, did you have relatives who were Kamajors?

  • I do not have a relative that was a Kamajor.

  • Your family were in no way related to the Kamajors?

  • Mr Witness, perhaps you could address the Bench, rather than counsel.

  • Tell me, Mr Bull, did you not have a relative with the nickname Turntome who was a member of the Kamajors?

  • Call the name again.

  • Turntome. I don't want you to turn to me, I would like you to look at the judges, but that was the name of the individual.

  • I never heard of - I never knew somebody whose name is like that.

  • You do appreciate, don't you, that your elder brother gave evidence to this Court earlier this week?

  • You do appreciate that, don't you?

  • That your older brother gave evidence to this Court earlier this week?

  • That I have not - well, I do appreciate that, but for me I don't know - I don't know anybody and I have never heard that name.

  • You have never heard of that name, a relative of yours who had the name Turntome?

  • I have never heard that name.

  • Who was a member of the Kamajors?

  • Who was a member of the Kamajors precisely?

  • Your relative who went by the name Turntome?

  • I never know that name before.

  • Very well. I want to move on now, please, and deal with another matter. Yes. During the course of your evidence yesterday you told us about the harrowing experience you had in relation to "A" and "B". Do you remember that?

  • Yes, I remember that.

  • You told us this, page 12715, line 19:

    "They got hold of 'A' and 'B' and also somebody who was

    with us and they raped them, right? They raped them and

    then they were taken along and then 'B' was released, but

    'A' was taken along.

    Q. How do you know this?

    A. 'B' said it, right? 'B' explained and she was crying

    bitterly, right? She was crying and then it was very

    deplorable anyway. She was so pale and I mean I could not

    imagine how she was feeling by then."

  • Mr Griffiths, please do slow down.

  • I am sorry, your Honour:

  • "How she was feeling by then. She was crying bitterly

    when we went there and she was crying that 'A' had been

    taken along. She was never been allowed to be released but

    they had released her, that being 'B'."

    Do you remember telling us that?

  • Yes, I remember that.

  • And do you remember further telling us that having persuaded that rebel Pikin to allow you to {Redacted} --

  • That will be redacted from the record, that relationship.

  • And for any members of the public or monitors that have heard that relationship mentioned, it is not to be repeated outside of the precincts of the Court.

  • You said that you saw "A" coming.

    "She was actually pale, right? She was pale. I never knew. I can't even imagine how I felt that moment especially that I understand that these guys, the AFRC/RUF guy would not allow me to take her along. For her, she never knew that I am, probably she was thinking that I am there to take her along. Some are anxious to see me or to come to me, then she came and I hugged her."

    And you remember telling us how you had a Bible in your pocket and you sat and you prayed, yes?

  • Yes. Yes.

  • Now, all of that must have been an awfully harrowing experience for you, mustn't it?

  • Come again with your last question.

  • That must have been a terrible experience for you?

  • A terrible, a terrible experience.

  • It is not the kind of thing one could forget, is it?

  • And you knew that this had happened to "A" and "B" at the time, didn't you?

  • And it no doubt had a very, very deep effect upon you?

  • Now could the witness please be shown MFI-1:

  • Now you see that you have written down on that piece of paper two names, yes?

  • Mm-hmm.

  • They are the names of A and B who were abducted and raped, is that right?

  • And those names are correct, are they?

  • Correct. Perfectly correct.

  • I want you to please think very carefully about this. Are they correct?

  • They are perfectly correct. The names are perfectly correct.

  • Very well. Please have a look behind divider 1?

  • The witness needs the Defence bundle again.

  • And, your Honours, again I hope that the screen has been switched off.

  • Please ensure it is not broadcast, Madam Court Officer. Has that been implemented?

  • I beg your pardon, your Honour, it has been implemented.

  • So, yes, let's look please behind divider 1 and can we look, please, at the second page behind that divider. Now, in the middle paragraph on that page - and I don't want you to read it out - do you see the rebels had abducted someone and someone. Do you see those two names?

  • One of those names is the same as you wrote on that piece of paper, but the other one is quite different, isn't it?

  • Now, let me tell you something. You remember I made a comment that the other name that is on the paper, I made a comment that "A" and "B" and somebody who was with us was also abducted, right? And of course I can tell you that the other name on the paper was not very too close to me. I can admit to that. You understand? So, more or less for me I can say it was not sort of something I will be allowed of saying, but I mention it here. And I also mentioned, I think there is a place where I categorically mentioned the relationship between "A" and "B" when I made a comment that so-and-so person were actually abducted. That is I am talking of "B". There is a place here where I mention that. But then the second name on the paper as you are mentioning in the paragraph is definitely not too close to me, but I think I said, I remembered I said "A" and "B" were taken along with somebody - with somebody - who was with my family.

  • So, really what that paragraph should have read is that "A", "B" and "C" were abducted, so why doesn't it?

  • Come again, please. Come again, please.

  • It should have read, shouldn't it, that "A", "B" and "C" were abducted?

  • Because that other name that you have written down on the piece of paper, do you see that that name appears a line down? The rebels initially also forced, yes, and, yes, another name?

  • Now, that other name is the name that you have written down on that piece of paper, is that right?

  • But look what you say. "But they released them after one or two miles"?

  • So, help me please. Why have you written that other name on that piece of paper as someone who was abducted and raped when here you are telling the investigators that that person was actually released? Why?

  • Okay, fine. Now, I want to face reality.

  • The reality of the incident that occurred was that I went to Kono, my Lord, with only somebody that I know, okay? I went with "A" and "B" and the other boys to Kono, right? And the other name mentioned here is somebody I had never knew before, okay? I never knew the other name mentioned here, so when of course giving this statement, as you can see somewhere where I mentioned "B", the second paragraph, let us say the third to the last line, yes? The whole incident is there that all of them were being taken away, right, but they were released after one or two miles.

  • No, no, no. You wrote those two names "A" and "B" on that piece of paper as two individuals abducted and raped. According to this, the "B" you named as having been raped was not raped at all. She was released. So, help us, please. Why did you write that name on the piece of paper as someone who had been raped?

  • "B" was raped. As I informed you, "B" came and explained to us when I returned back, you know I mentioned an area where we come from getting the bush yams, right? And then we came hearing the gunshot. So after "B" explained to us what had happened, that "A" has been taken away and she went on to say further things in detail, which I did not mention, and I wrote that name there because after I went to Motema to get in contact with "A" and prayed with her and gave her the Bible, upon me returning to Bandafada I found my way, walk alone to Tongbodu where I discovered the rest of my family, I got the information from then that "B" has been recaptured again, right? And I wrote that name there - I wrote that name there because after every experience, about one year and four months as I said, after the experience, "B" and "A" really told me what happened. That was the reason why I wrote that statement there that "B" and "A" were raped.

  • But also, you see, when you spoke to us yesterday about "A" and "B", you told us that only "A" - and I use this word quite deliberately - was connected to you. But have a look at the two connections of "A" and the name which appears on the third line. Both the names that you have written on that piece of paper, according to this paragraph, were connected to you in a certain way. That is right, isn't it?

  • Yes, the other name is connected to me.

  • Both of them, yes? But you didn't tell us that yesterday. Yesterday, you told us it was only "A" who was connected to you. How did you forget that "B" was also connected to you?

  • I cannot forget that "B" is connected to me. I think I mentioned that everywhere in my statement that "B" - in fact there was a time I was saying that "B" is my - well, can I say? But there is another incident that I said, I go further to explain in detail the relationship between me and "B". I went further to say that. It is in my statement.

  • Mr Griffiths, to be fair to the witness, the MFI-1 that this witness wrote, he wrote not only the full names of "A" and "B" but also the relationship with "A" and "B". To be fair to the witness, he does state the relationship of "B" to himself.

  • Can I see that piece of paper, please. Can I just remind myself. Yes, I wonder if we could put that up on the screen, please. Could we put that piece of paper on the screen, please.

  • Sorry, Mr Griffiths, I am not sure which piece of paper you are referring to.

  • I see. Again, please ensure it is not broadcast. Two things, Madam Court Officer. First of all, it will not be broadcast, is that correct?

  • And when it is put on the screen I want you to stand immediately in front of it so that you are between the machine and the glass. Do you understand?

  • Mr Bull, next to the name "B" that you have written down you have put a connection, haven't you?

  • I put the connection there.

  • Now, the connection you have put there - let's just move that piece of paper to one side now. Move it to one side, please, so we can see the other page, the other document. Now, that connection is different to the connection we see third line from that paragraph, isn't it?

  • Fine. Yes, yes, it's different. If I can go further? I made a comment when I was doing some other statements some time. It's usual that "B" has been called that name or that relationship that I mentioned there. It is usual. Why? Why? I explained - I think I explained to some of the lawyers who were interviewing me, asking me questions some time ago, and somebody can prove that to be worthy. And why that happened, "B" was very, very, very small, I can say below the age of five, when my mother took her, right? And we grew up with that kind of impression that "B" is such a kind of - is related to me in that way. That is normally what has been happening.

    And after the war and during the war and everywhere people were asking me, "What has happened? What has happened?" And I was mentioning "B" to be that kind of person to me. Everywhere people know. In fact only three people know that "B" is somewhat of what I mentioned here, right. But many people around our house, around our - I mean our area, people who know the family thought that "B" is what is mentioned here. That is clear.

  • Very well. Before I move on to another passage, let us just for the last time remind ourselves of what that passage says which is on the screen: "The rebels initially also forced two boys and to carry their loads but they released them after one or two miles." Were they released?

  • Yes, they were released.

  • After one or two miles?

  • Now, note that one of those connected to you was released after one or two miles, yes?

  • Now, help me with this then, please. Can we go behind divider 3 and can we have a look at the second page behind divider 3, please, and let's have a look at the second to last sentence:

    "My connections who were captured before me were not released until after 6 January 1999. I do not know whether my connections were raped. The rebels did not spare any women or girls except the very young ones. The others were raped."

    Why were you telling the investigators in January 2003 that they were not raped when --

  • I think the question --

  • -- yesterday you tell us that they were?

  • By then the question that the investigator asked me, I think to be precise, this, the capture of "A" and "B", right, is on two different occasions - between "B", sorry. "A" is one occasion, right. I think what I understood the investigator was asking me, that during the time "A" and "B" were with them, that time when I came back to Freetown, when I was in Freetown, the investigators were asking me if I know if they had been raped. That was what she was asking me. I remember. That was why I made that comment. I think the sentence is there that I do not know whether my {Redacted} were raped during that time.

  • But hold on, you had this harrowing experience where "B" came to you and said, "Not only have I been raped, but 'A' has been raped as well." And then you saw "A" yourself with your own eyes. She looked pale and she told you, "I have been raped". And yet here you are in 2003 saying, "I do not know whether my connections were raped"?

  • It's a kind of question I believe. I thought - I prefer, or I guess if this question may have been there - the question that actually the investigator asked me I think is the reason why I said so, but --

  • But the question must have been, "Mr Bull, were your {Redacted} raped?", and the answer should have been, "Yes, they were and it was a really horrible experience for me"?

  • Why are you saying there, "I do not know". Why?

  • To say that I do not know, it doesn't mean that it - it's like I was presenting myself as if - I was not there when that happened and I was not in the scene when that happened, right?

    Because I think I remember the investigator was asking me, "Did you see them raped?" I said, "No, I do not know." But it's like the comment I made that "B" said it, "A" said it, right? "B" said it that they were raped and that was why I am contemplating on the fact that "A" and "B" were raped. It was not that I was there. The reason why I said this is because I was not there. I do not know if that happened. It is just a statement said by "A" and "B".

  • But Mr Bull, look what you continue to say in the same paragraph, "The others were raped". Now, I am sure you weren't present when the others were raped, but you still told the investigators that.

  • Because --

  • Yet when it comes to your own {Redacted} you say you don't know?

  • Because when I was with them I witnessed so many other occasions they raped women, right. I witnessed so many other occasions where the AFRC/RUF guys raped women. That was why I said others were raped, because for that I witness it, right? I witness it. But for with "A" and "B" I was not there. It is better that I was not there.

  • Mr Bull, have you told us a lie about that horrendous experience that you claim you were told about and which you related to us yesterday? Have you lied to us about that?

  • The question again, please. Come again.

  • Did you tell us a lie yesterday when you spoke of those connected to you being raped?

  • It's not a lie.

  • So help me, please. Why did you give a completely different account to the investigators in January 2003?

  • I have already said why I said so. I think the question - you know, I can say it would have been better if the question that the investigator asked me was here, right, because the investigator asked me, I can remember, "Were you there? Were you there when 'A' and 'B' were raped?"

  • Well, if you had been asked that question --

  • I was not there. It was just statement, right. So I cannot say to the Court, or I can not say to anybody, or an investigator, I can't say to you that --

  • Please pause, Mr Witness. Counsel for the Prosecution wants to say something.

  • There is no objection. I just do note though that I believe a redaction would be in order at page 74, line 7, part of counsel's question. It's my page 74, line 7. I think a redaction would be in order.

  • I didn't use that word - are we talking about at the end of line 9 --

  • I am not sure of the font. The word is {Redacted}, but I mean --

  • I am sure I heard counsel say "connection", but let us - let's make sure that this transcript is in proper order. We will redact the word which is at the end of the page 74, line 8, and word Mr Santora has just said which is at --

  • I think there is another reference.

  • And Mr Griffiths's words at page 75, line 18.

  • There maybe another reference at page 70.

  • And at line 21, page 75.

  • I think there may be another reference at page 73, line 2.

  • Mr Griffiths, have you any comment on that?

  • I have no difficulty with those redactions taking place.

  • I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr Witness. Can you recall what you were saying and are you able to continue answering that question?

  • Your Honours, may I seek for clarification of the pages, please?

  • I was saying that - okay, sorry.

  • Do continue. Please continue, Mr Witness.

  • If I could remind the witness of what he was saying:

  • "I was not there. It was just a statement, right. So I cannot say to the Court, or I cannot say to anybody, or an investigator - I can't say to you that --" And then we had my learned friend quite properly asking us for those redactions. Now, what you were saying to us in effect was, "The investigator said to me, 'Were you there, Mr Bull, when your connections were raped?'" Is that right?

  • Well, surely the answer to that question would be, "I was not there" as opposed to, "I don't know whether they were raped"?

  • Well, the sense there is because I do remember that was the question when the investigator asked me.

  • That was a question.

  • But your answer should have been, "I wasn't there, but I was told". Your answer should not have been, "I don't know." Don't you agree?

  • I agree to that definitely, but, as I am saying, I would not - in fact there are many instances where I mention them being raped. And of course you can see another phrase there that I said the rebels did not spare any women or girls, right, except for the very young ones. This is just - this will obviously justify that it happened. But I just want to - I don't want to say that it happened at that time because of a question that this investigator asked me. He was - he was actually asking me - I think - I remember she was actually asking me if I was there and that was why I added the rebels did not spare any women or girl except the very young ones. In fact that was the reason why I added this, right.

  • Do you agree, Mr Bull, that this - what is said here is totally contrary to what you told this Court yesterday?

  • It is not contrary. I will not agree to that. I object to that.

  • So, you want us to accept, do you, that on the one hand "I don't know if they were raped" but on the other hand you giving us a graphic account of what happened to them. Both of those can't be right, can they?

  • It is what - it is what - of course I will go over that over and over. That --

  • I hope you don't, because I would like to finish today.

  • Now within that partnership between the RUF and the AFRC there were many tensions, weren't there?

  • Pardon? I am sorry, please.

  • There were many tensions between the RUF members and the AFRC, the former SLA soldiers?

  • They didn't like each other, did they?

  • Is that right? Nodding is no good to us. You need to say yes or no?

  • Go ahead, go ahead again.

  • The RUF soldiers and the former Sierra Leonean Army soldiers, they didn't like each other, did they?

  • I can't give a conclusion that they did not like each other, right? All I can say - I mean, I can't conclude because I - it was just a part of them. I was not even going into what was going on between them. I only made a mention of few activities that actually took place while I was with them, so I cannot say to you that they like each other, they do not like each other. I can't say that.

  • Well, let's approach it differently. They looked different, didn't they? They looked different, didn't they?

  • Mr Witness, you should answer the question because your response has to be written down.

  • So it is not sufficient to nod. Please answer it verbally.

  • Okay.

  • You could tell the difference between RUF members and SLA members by their appearance, couldn't you?

  • And you recall an occasion when there was almost a shoot-out between the RUF and the SLA soldiers?

  • Over a broken spoon, yes?

  • And they were going to - they were ready to kill each other?

  • And so there were those kinds of tensions between them, weren't there?

  • And it was apparent to you, as a new recruit to the RUF, that those tensions existed?

  • Now, you have told us about being captured and undergoing training for a couple of weeks?

  • And thereafter you went out on missions with the RUF, didn't you?

  • Did you ever carry a gun?

  • I carried a gun at the last point when we were going to Tefeya. I can say that. That was the only time I carried a gun.

  • Did you ever fire it?

  • I never, never fired at somebody, but I fired a gun when we were in the training, but I have never fired at somebody. I took an oath that I am saying the truth and I will say the truth.

  • And you know that group of SLA former RUF members, did they have a radio operator with them?

  • Yes. You know those things you listen to --

  • Mr Witness, I think counsel, and please correct me if necessary, is not saying a radio. I think you are talking about a means of communication.

  • I am going to object and it is probably just a slip of the tongue to the question of a reference to SLA former RUF members. I am not sure if that was the intention.

  • Let me clarify it, Mr Bull. This group of former Sierra Leonean Army soldiers and RUF soldiers that had captured you and trained you, did they have amongst their number a radio operator?

  • I cannot remember them having a radio operator. Not a radio operator.

  • I mean, was there someone with that group who would occasionally get on the radio to other RUF or other groups and say "Look, we are in such-and-such a place and we are going to attack such-and-such a village"? Did you ever hear someone --

  • No, never, never. I don't remember such a thing happened.

  • You don't remember that at all?

  • I don't remember that at all.

  • So when, for example, your leader, was it Hosana, ordered amputations to take place, that was his idea, was it?

  • That was his idea, was it?

  • That was his idea, yes.

  • No-one instructed him to do it, as far as you are aware?

  • As far as I am aware, I don't know if somebody instructed him at that point.

  • But he gave you the order.

  • He gave me the order.

  • And you don't recall there being a radio operator there.

  • No radio operator, of course.

  • Thank you. So was there any means of communicating with any other RUF group?

  • The - of course I spoke of a communication network, right, and I mentioned really that there are different groups, AFRC/RUF groups, all around Kono. There are RUF groups in Woama and we were between Woama and Baima and there were other groups between Woama and Koidu, and I mentioned that on a daily basis there will be four or five men that will be moving from this point to this point, and they will convey messages, right? And even the commanders like Kallay Amara used to walk, used to go through this point. He used to go from that Woama base, go to Woama and go to Bai Bureh, as I mentioned, so that was their means of communication when we were - when we moved from Njaiama Nimikoro to Woama. That was their means of communication.

  • You see, the reason why I am asking you in particular about this, Mr Bull, is because you had been studying electronics and communications, hadn't you?

  • I?

  • You had been studying communications, hadn't you?

  • Yes, I was studying communication.

  • So you are the kind of person the RUF would have handed a radio to and said "Please be our radio operator"?

  • But you were never asked to do that?

  • Of course never asked to do that.

  • Now there is one other matter I want to ask you about and it is this: Yes, I wonder please if the witness could be shown behind divider 4. Could we please look at the fourth page. Now, do you see a subheading on that page - I think it is the wrong page. My fault. You see a subheading at the top of that page "Operation No Living Thing".

    "The witness heard of Operation No Living Thing even before he was captured and it just continued on even when he was captured. The objective was not to leave anyone alive in the towns that they attacked. General Lamin was behind every decision of the operation and Foday Bangura would execute the operation orders. This was a very popular operation amongst the rebels".

    Who was General Lamin?

  • It is Hosana.

  • And his surname was Lamin?

  • His name was Lamin, yes.

  • What was his first name?

  • I don't know his first name.

  • But he was a general, was he?

  • Of course they used to call themselves different posts. They called themselves general, lieutenant, but I heard him, somebody calling him General Lamin.

  • So he was a pretty senior member of the RUF, was he?

  • He was part of the top senior members with the group I was with.

  • With the group you were with?

  • A general indeed, yes?

  • And his surname was Lamin, was it?

  • Lamin, yes. Lamin. I don't know if Lamin is his surname or what, but his name is Lamin. One of his names.

  • And it was that General Lamin who ordered Operation No Living Thing, was it?

  • Well, yes. He was part of the groups that were, as I said earlier on, that some of the decisions had been made by a group of men, right? And of course I can confer that most of the ideas were coming from Bai Bureh, I think I mentioned that in my statement, that Bai Bureh will order something and then like Lamin, Bangura - Foday Bangura and the others will execute some of these orders.

  • Can you help us with a first name for that General Lamin?

  • Can you help us with a first name?

  • I don't know the first name of General Lamin. I don't know the first name of that General Lamin.

  • Mr Griffiths, this excerpt you have just read comes out of where?

  • It comes out of a statement from this - well, an interview conducted with this witness dated 24/25 July of this year and it bears the ERN number 00048226:

  • Now, does the name Mike Lamin mean anything to you?

  • I mentioned Mike Lamin?

  • No, no, I asked you does the name Mike Lamin mean anything to you?

  • Mike Lamin, no, no. Mike Lamin, no.

  • But you served with an RUF general called Lamin, did you?

  • And his nickname was what?

  • Can you help us with a date when you were captured, the second capture?

  • The second capture. The second capture. Well, I can't remember the days. That I can't remember. I can't remember the days. All my memory is approximate.

  • Can you give us a month?

  • The second capture is in April.