The transcripts of the trial of Charles Taylor, former President of Liberia. More…

  • Mr Munyard, please proceed with cross-examination.

  • Thank you, your Honour.

  • Good morning, Mr Camara.

  • Good morning to you.

  • Yesterday when we broke off we were walking the bush paths in Lofa County and I want to ask you a little bit more about the bush paths, please. I want to suggest to you that once ULIMO took control of Lofa County certainly by 1993 there were no arms and ammunition getting through from Liberia through to Sierra Leone. What do you say about that?

  • I don't have anything to say to that. I don't know anything about that. I have no knowledge of that question.

  • I'm sorry, I was on channel zero by mistake so I'll look at the reply.

  • The witness said he had no knowledge.

  • Well, can I ask you please to look at the document bundle again. Madam Court Attendant, if you could assist. I'm going to ask you to look at tab 4 starting on page 30772. Do you see that, Mr Camara, on the screen in front of you?

  • Yes, I see it.

  • I want to ask you about the third paragraph, the final paragraph on that page, and do you see here --

  • Can you get it up, please?

  • You see here that you told the investigators, Mr Berry and Mr Morris, that when ULIMO had closed down the roads into Sierra Leone in the later part of 1992, possibly between October and December, you were not in Lofa County when this occurred. Pausing there. Had you been told by somebody that ULIMO had closed the roads into Sierra Leone between October and December of 1992? Was that something you knew or was that something the investigators were telling you?

  • At that time I was in Liberia so I knew about the fact.

  • When there was - when the fight came into Lofa we had explosives - we heard explosives so nobody had to tell me that a fight was going on.

  • But you were at Cobra Base then, weren't you?

  • Yes, at that time I was at Cobra Base.

  • And you wouldn't hear the explosions in Lofa County in Cobra Base, would you?

  • When there is a fight in Lofa you hear - you hear about - you hear the sounds of arms.

  • All the way to Cobra Base? Where again do you say Cobra Base was?

  • Cobra is at Gbatala, near Gbarnga.

  • And if there were explosions in the north western part of Lofa County are you saying you could hear those?

  • From Zorzor to the waterside when there is a fight you can hear it, you can be aware of it.

  • And how many miles away is Zorzor, or kilometres if you choose?

  • I really - I can't tell you. I really can't tell you the number of kilometres.

  • We're talking dozens if not hundreds of kilometres, aren't we?

  • No, it's - no, no, not up to hundred. Less than hundred.

  • How far do you say it was?

  • I am telling you that I don't know exactly how many kilometres that is.

  • Can we go back to the page, please, the same paragraph a little bit further down. Do you see in the middle of the page, it's five lines down from the beginning of that paragraph, there's a sentence that starts, "By the time he was sent in 1993". Do you see that, Mr Camara?

  • What's the time you said?

  • It's a sentence that starts halfway down that final paragraph and it begins in the middle of the page with the words, "By the time he was sent in 1993". Can you see that sentence?

  • Yes, I see the sentence.

  • And is this what you told the investigators: By the time you were sent in 1993 to assist Jallow ULIMO had control of Zorzor to Voinjama. You advised the investigators that you knew there were still footpaths and rough roadways still open along the Bomi Hills and Cape Mount County areas which bordered with Sierra Leone, but you had never been assigned there so your knowledge was little. Can you remember telling the investigators that?

  • Yes, I do remember telling them that.

  • If you had never been there your knowledge wasn't little, your knowledge was nil, wasn't it?

  • That's what's written in the statement, isn't it?

  • Your knowledge was absolutely nil if you had never been to the footpaths and roadways in Bomi Hills and Cape Mount County, wasn't it?

  • Your Honour, I'm sorry to object but what he said here is not that he had never been there but been assigned there which is not the same thing.

  • I take the point and I'll clarify it:

  • You said you had never been assigned there. Can we assume that that means you've never been there?

  • I just said that I was never assigned there. I told you that I knew that there were footpaths. There were many footpaths in Liberia.

  • You hadn't been on all of the footpaths in Liberia, had you?

  • No, of course not, I haven't been everywhere.

  • And you hadn't been on the footpaths in the Bomi Hills and Cape Mount County, had you?

  • No, I haven't been there.

  • Thank you. So it doesn't matter whether the word is had never been assigned there or had never been there, it's the same thing, isn't it?

  • Yes, I was never - I have never been assigned there.

  • Or been there, or been there at all?

  • I told you I've been to Belle Yella, from Gorlu to Belle Yella. I've been to Belle Yella, I've told you. I have seen footpaths in that area which leads to Bopolu. There were even footpaths to other directions also.

  • I'm going to interrupt you because we're not talking about Belle Yella and Bopolu. That was yesterday. Today we are talking about Bomi Hills and Cape Mount County. I think you've answered that you have never been on the footpaths in those areas. That's correct, isn't it?

  • I didn't - I went to Belle Yella. I haven't used the footpaths in that - in the Bomi Hill area.

  • You've never been to Bomi Hills or Cape Mount County, have you?

  • I haven't been in that area, but I took a car up to Lofa Bridge, but I was not assigned in that - in that place.

  • Can we move on and look at the last part of this paragraph, please. You told the investigators that you were able to kick out ULIMO from Zorzor and Voinjama in the later part of 1993 and then the ULIMO took over the Foya and Kolahun area.

    And going over the page to the top of page 30773 you went on to tell the investigators that your forces and ULIMO's switched areas back and forth for a while and then ULIMO pushed you out of Voinjama to Zorzor and here the investigators have recorded the time that you said ULIMO pushed you out of Voinjama to Zorzor in these words, "In the early part of 1994 around September or October".

    Now this is what the investigators have written down because we can see it in front of us, but what does it mean, Mr Camara? In the early part of 1994 it could not possibly be September or October, could it?

  • I said that in 1994 we had a fight with ULIMO at Lofa. There was the LDF, the Lofa Defence Force, we were fighting in that force. We were pushed out of Lofa completely.

  • It's the dates that we are interested in, not what actually happened. Can you concentrate please on that phrase and tell us what on earth does it mean, "In the early part of 1994 around September or October". Whose got it wrong, you or the investigators?

  • September, October, it says it's in 1994.

  • But it says the early part of 1994. Now by no stretch of the imagination is September or October early 1994. Who has recorded that - whose got that wrong? Have the investigators written down something that you didn't say or did you say something that is a contradiction in terms?

  • I told them that in 1994 ULIMO pushed us out of Lofa around September or October. That's what I said. We were pushed out of Lofa around September or October.

  • So the investigators have written down something wrong yet again, have they?

  • No, the date is correct. It's September, October in 1994.

  • Mr Camara, I'm going to try one last time. Do you understand what is contradictory about that expression, "In the early part of 1994 around September or October"? Do you understand what the problem with that expression is?

  • It was in September, October that we were pushed out of Lofa. The Lofa Defence Force, we were pushed out of Lofa.

  • Mr Witness, do you understand the question that is being put to you? It is not what time you were being pushed out, it is why does this statement say the early part of 1994 and then says September or October which is not the early time of 1994. Why is it recorded in that way?

  • Maybe it must be mistake made by the investigators, those who have taken down my statements. But we left Lofa in September or October, so there must have been a mistake made by the investigators.

  • All right, thank you. Another mistake that you failed to correct when they read back the interview to you. Is that right?

  • I told you that I don't understand very well English. I don't know the - I don't know English the way you know it. I don't know as well as you.

  • Mr Camara, I want to suggest to you that once ULIMO took over Lofa County and the rest of the western side of Liberia no arms or ammunition got through from Liberia to Sierra Leone. There might have been some fighting in the bush, but no arms shipments got through from Liberia to Sierra Leone. What do you say about that?

  • At that time I was fighting. It's quite possible, but at that time I was in the bush fighting, because even sometimes we had - we received supplies.

  • I'm not suggesting that you didn't receive supplies to fight ULIMO. I'm talking about arms and ammunition going through from Liberia to Sierra Leone. Do you agree with me that you don't know whether arms and ammunition got through to Sierra Leone once ULIMO had taken over the western part of the country?

  • Yeah, indeed there were arms sent to Sierra Leone from Liberia.

  • I'm talking about the time after ULIMO were in control of western Liberia. Do you follow?

  • I am telling you that since we retreated from Lofa at that time there was a fight in Gbarnga.

  • Can the witness repeat that part, please.

  • Mr Witness, could you please repeat the last part of your answer for the interpreter.

  • I say that when we left Lofa and I took my assignment in Gbarnga I have seen planes leaving Gbarnga, the airfield of Gbarnga, going to Sierra Leone and they had arms and ammunitions on board.

  • And what sort of planes were these leaving Gbarnga?

  • It was not passenger planes. It was smaller types of aircrafts.

  • Are you talking about planes or helicopters?

  • The helicopter is the one which has fans, but the one I'm talking about have no fans. The ones who have - you know the others are planes for me, so I don't know how you call those ones, the ones which do not have fans, because I don't know how you would call them.

  • Where do you say the airport was in Gbarnga?

  • It was an airfield, not an airport.

  • I want to suggest that there were no aeroplanes of any sort that could take off from Gbarnga at that time. What do you say about that?

  • There is an airfield at Gbarnga. There is - it's on the right-hand side when you're coming from Gbatala.

  • And you say that you saw aeroplanes. How big were they?

  • The small - it was small airplanes, not big ones. It was smaller planes, airplanes.

  • How many of them did you see?

  • I don't know exactly. I haven't seen them all. I know that there were some who left that airfield.

  • How many of these planes did you see?

  • I have seen the arms and ammunitions being boarded. I escorted them myself from Mansion Ground. I know that several times - several times planes were lifting arms and ammunitions.

  • Madam Interpreter, did you say I haven't seen the arms and ammunitions, or I have seen?

  • Can we clarify this, please. Are you saying, Mr Camara, that you saw the arms and ammunition?

  • Yes. I said that.

  • And this is --

  • I have told you that I was present at one occasion. I was present at that occasion.

  • I thought you said after Gbarnga fall. Is that what you said? It's not come up on the screen, but that's what I heard and I see Mr Werner nodding his head.

  • Yes, your Honour, I was going to - I don't think the whole sentence was translated.

  • Madam Interpreter, could we have the entire answer translated again, please.

  • Can the witness repeat, please, and slowly.

  • Mr Witness, please repeat your answer. We may not have had all of it interpreted. Please speak slowly.

  • When we recaptured Gbarnga after it had fallen I was assigned at Mansion Ground, EMG. I myself made some escorts, arms - I escorted arms and ammunitions to the airfield in Gbarnga. I know that those arms and ammunitions was destined to Sierra Leone, but I have also heard - I know - and I know, I'm sure, that those planes - on many occasions planes left Gbarnga for Sierra Leone with arms and ammunitions.

  • Mr Camara, we don't want to know at the moment what other people have told you. What I'm asking about is what you personally saw and what you personally knew. Do you understand that?

  • I didn't tell that somebody told me. I have seen arms. Myself escorted ammunitions and arms. I don't know what you want - what else do you want me to say?

  • How many times do you say you escorted arms and ammunition to aeroplanes leaving the airfield at Gbarnga?

  • I know that it was once for sure. I'm sure of one. I have escorted arms and ammunitions once to the airfield.

  • And how do you know where they were going?

  • The security people I was accompanying from Mansion Ground, I knew those arms and ammunitions were to be sent to Sierra Leone because the generals - some generals were present. And don't forget that I was part of the Special Forces in Liberia.

  • I'm going to come back to your role as part of the Special Forces, but is this what you're telling us: That you had personal knowledge that these arms were going to Sierra Leone?

  • Yes, the arms were for Sierra Leone.

  • And you had personal knowledge of that, did you?

  • It's my own personal knowledge.

  • Have a look again please at page 30773. Madam Court Attendant, we might need you. Thank you. I want to carry on - I don't know if the witness's screen is showing - it is, is it? Yes. We read the first two lines. I want you to carry on now and I'd like you to look at the rest of that paragraph. "They held on", that's ULIMO held on, "to Zorzor for two to three months before being pushed back to Gbarnga in late 1994." Sorry I think that's you. I'm going to start again.

    You advised the investigators that ULIMO pushed you out of Voinjama to Zorzor in early 1994 around September, October. You held on to Zorzor for two to three months before being pushed back to Gbarnga in late 1994. This was during the Lofa defence operation. During this time you knew that the roads to Sierra Leone were closed to you and even when you were in Voinjama and Zorzor because you really had to get to Foya to get into Sierra Leone. There were bush trails but they were long and rough from Voinjama to Sierra Leone and you do not know if these routes were used or not.

    Pausing there. Do you agree this is what you told these investigators?

  • I don't get your statement very well. Can you please clarify.

  • I have just read to you a part of this first paragraph on this page. Do you agree that what is written there is what you told the investigators who were interviewing you?

  • Madam Interpreter, what was that you said?

  • What did I say? Can you repeat?

  • He wants to know what the counsel said.

  • What we've just looked at together, Mr Camara, on that page, is that what you told the investigators?

  • Can you read - can you please read again the part of the statement you're talking about.

  • Mr Munyard, if you would put it slowly to allow the interpretation, please.

  • Yes. If I slow down much more I'll come to a full stop, but I'll try.

  • I'm afraid the technology.

  • Mr Camara, I'm going to read this passage again to you and I want you to tell us have the investigators correctly recorded what you told them when they wrote this down. Now I'm going to read it.

    "The witness", that is you, "advises that ULIMO pushed them", that's you, "out of Voinjama to Zorzor in the early part of 1994 around September or October. That they", that's you, "held on to Zorzor for two to three months before being pushed back to Gbarnga in late 1994. This was during the Lofa defence operation. During this time he knows", that's you knew, "that the roads to Sierra Leone were closed to them", that's to you and even when you were in Voinjama and Zorzor, "because you really had to get to Foya to get into Sierra Leone. There were bush trails but they were long and rough from Voinjama to Sierra Leone and he", that's you, "do not know if these routes were used or not."

    Very simple question from me now, Mr Camara, is that what you told the investigators when they were interviewing you in April of last year?

  • Yes. Yes, that's what I said, I didn't know what was going - the bush roads, people were using bush roads, so that's a fact.

  • Well, you said that you didn't know if people were using these bush roads in that passage we have just read together?

  • Yes, yes. There were bush roads and the people were using them, but I don't know anything about those, what was happening on those roads.

  • Well, why did you tell the investigators that there were bush trails but you didn't know if they were being used or not?

  • I knew that they there were roads.

  • And you didn't know whether they were being used or not when you were seen by the investigators in July of last year, did you?

  • I cannot - I cannot confirm this statement.

  • I'm now going to carry on reading more from that paragraph.

    "The witness", that's you, "knows that arms were airlifted to Sierra Leone as there was an airstrip in Gbarnga that planes used to land at and some of these planes he believes, but has no personal knowledge, transported arms to Sierra Leone."

    Why did you tell us a few minutes ago that you had personal knowledge that these planes were transporting arms to Sierra Leone when you told the investigators less than a year ago that you had no personal knowledge that these arms were being transported to Sierra Leone?

  • No, no, I didn't say that. I knew that planes were leaving Gbarnga to Sierra Leone with arms and ammunitions.

  • So why did you tell the investigators --

  • Let me answer to your question, please. I said that they asked if I knew how much were the cost of the arms and ammunition and I said I didn't know that because I was not in Sierra Leone to answer that question.

  • Why did you tell the investigators that you had no personal knowledge, that it was simply your belief that these arms were being transported to Sierra Leone?

  • I said that the arms and ammunitions were transported to Sierra Leone, but their cost in Sierra Leone, I didn't know how much they cost in Sierra Leone, but I didn't say that arms and ammunitions were not transported to Sierra Leone and it's not in my statement.

  • What is not in your statement, Mr Camara, is that you personally escorted these arms to the airport from the Executive Mansion. Why on earth didn't you tell the investigators that that's how you knew about all of this?

  • The arms and ammunitions were transported to Sierra Leone. I haven't escorted them all, but I knew that they were transported to Sierra Leone and I don't know how much they cost in Sierra Leone.

  • I'm now asking you about them being transported from the Executive Mansion to the airstrip. Why didn't you tell the investigators that that's how you knew about these weapons?

  • You - maybe you should ask the investigators, because I told them.

  • Are you saying you told them that you had personally escorted these arms and ammunition from the Executive Mansion to the aircraft?

  • I didn't escort all the arms and ammunitions.

  • Just the ones that you did escort, just the ones you did escort, are you telling this Court that you told the investigators that you had escorted some of the arms from the Executive Mansion to the aircraft?

  • I remember having escorted once arms and ammunitions.

  • Please listen to the question. Are you saying to the Court that you told the investigators that on one occasion you personally escorted these arms to the aircraft waiting at the airstrip in Gbarnga?

  • Yes, I told them.

  • So is it your case that they have failed to record that which you told them?

  • I don't know. I cannot answer that question.

  • It's not written there, Mr Camara, so if you told them then that's another failing on their part, isn't it?

  • That your best answer, is it?

  • Yes, that's my answer.

  • Well, let's finish the reading of that paragraph, please. It carries on - after the words, "But he has no personal knowledge the planes transported arms to Sierra Leone" it carries on as follows:

    "He has no knowledge of any choppers being used to transport as he only recalls smaller two propeller planes at Gbarnga. Witness has no knowledge", that's you, "where they would land in Sierra Leone. After they had been pushed out of Lofa he had been stationed in Gbarnga and Gbatala", again this is you, and the airlifts to your knowledge occurred both before and after the fall of Gbarnga to the ULIMO.

    Were you telling the investigators that the airlifts from the airstrip continued even after ULIMO had taken control of Gbarnga?

  • No, no, when ULIMO took control of Gbarnga, I said after ULIMO never controlled Gbarnga completely and they hadn't controlled for a long time all of Gbarnga. The control lasted maybe two or three months only. I know that the planes were leaving Gbarnga before even they had taken Gbarnga and after they had control, they captured Gbarnga, planes were landing in Gbarnga.

  • I'm going to move on, please, Mr Camara. The final matter about bush paths is this: I asked you a question earlier to which you didn't give me a reply. Do you agree that you simply do not know if bush paths were being used - once ULIMO took over western Liberia if bush paths were being used to transport arms and ammunition to Sierra Leone? Do you agree you just don't know whether that was happening?

  • I said that it was - I don't know if they were using them or if they were not using the rough paths because I was not assigned in the bush.

  • Thank you. Now you mentioned being a member of Special Forces and then you've already told us that you were working as Cobra Base as a training instructor and was it Major Kato?

  • And what's his rank?

  • Major. It's Major Joseph Kato.

  • And he was just a junior commander, wasn't he? Sorry, a junior commando.

  • Yes, yes, he was a junior commander indeed.

  • So what was he doing being in a superior position to you, an elite member of the Special Forces?

  • He was not the leader of the Special Forces. Major Kato was part of the EMG. We were under SSS unit.

  • That's my point. Were you really working as a training instructor at Cobra Base or were you simply part of the general security in that area?

  • I was a training instructor and I've told you that already.

  • And was Major Kato superior to you?

  • He was a major and at that time I was a captain.

  • This is the time in 1992, is it?

  • Yes, yes, 1992 to 1996 I was on a permanent assignment and I was having TDYs.

  • And how many TDYs do you say you went on all together?

  • I had three TDYs in Lofa and one in EMG ground force after Gbarnga fall.

  • I want to suggest to you that there were no special boy units in either Cobra Base or at the Executive Mansion?

  • Do you mean Small Boy Units?

  • I think I said special by mistake, didn't I. I'm sorry, yes.

  • We'll start again with that one, Mr Camara. I want to suggest to you that there were no Small Boy Units in either Cobra Base being trained or at the Executive Mansion?

  • I told you that Small Boy Units were being trained in Cobra. Cobra is a training camp. It was only the instructors who were based there permanently. The SBUs used to come for training at Cobra Base.

  • You mentioned someone called Supoon. Have I correctly pronounced his name?

  • He wasn't a Small Boy Unit commander, he was a relative of Charles Taylor, wasn't he?

  • I didn't say that. I don't know. I don't know anything about that.

  • I'm suggesting to you the reason he was at the Executive Mansion Ground is because he was a relative of Mr Taylor. You're saying now you didn't know that?

  • Supoon was an SBU commander. He was not a relative of Charles Taylor.

  • A moment ago you said you didn't know whether he was a relative of Charles Taylor. Now you're saying he wasn't a relative of Charles Taylor. Which one is it, Mr Camara; you don't know or he definitely wasn't?

  • I know Supoon as a commander of the SBU, a Small Boys Unit. During all my stay in Liberia nobody told me that Supoon was Taylor's relative.

  • I'm now going to ask you about something different. It's right, isn't it, that when ULIMO attacked in Lofa County many civilians actually fled from Lofa County and came to Gbarnga?

  • Yes, civilians retreated to Gbarnga.

  • Another separate issue, please. You've told us that you would sometimes hear secret radio communications when you were at the Executive Mansion Ground. Do you remember saying that the other day?

  • How would they be a secret if somebody like you could listen in on them?

  • I told you that I was - I was at Mansion Ground. It's Charles Taylor himself who had given me an assignment. We were making tea for him at that time and we had the opportunity to hear - to hear the communications when we were doing tea for him, making tea for him.

  • So let me see if I understand this correctly. That the person who was making tea was able to listen in quite by chance to top secret military radio communications. Is that the evidence that you're giving to this Court?

  • Sorry, can the witness repeat.

  • Mr Witness, would you please repeat your answer.

  • I'm telling you that the military questions you're talking about, I don't know what - I have always been with the military leaders. When I was guarding the gates I used to be with the military leaders.

  • Right, would you now go back to the question I asked and try and answer that?

  • I said I used to sit and chat with the military leaders.

  • Mr Camara, I asked you how was it that a person who was simply there to make a cup of tea was able to listen in to top secret military radio communications. Could you explain to the Court how that was possible in the middle of a civil war?

  • I told you that the room in which we had received communications and the gate where I was standing there was only 5 metres between them and Charles Taylor's own bedroom, there were only 2 metres between that place and Charles Taylor's own bedroom. The communication room, if you want me to give an estimation, it's a 2 metres square room approximately. So I was just in front of the communication room when I was making tea, I was just sitting in front of the communication room, against the communication room.

  • Listening to top secret radio communications being broadcast out of the room for the benefit of anybody who happened to be passing by; is that what you're telling us?

  • What don't you understand in this? I was sitting there. I was sitting there in that room and I intercepted at occasion communications from the ULIMO because it made in Mandinka. At two to three occasions I had to listen to what they were saying. I don't know why you think that it's so extraordinary.

  • Mr Camara, you told us the other day that you were able to listen to secret communications. I'm simply suggesting to you that that is nonsense. That someone in your position, especially when they were carrying out the role of making a cup of tea, would not possibly be allowed to listen to such communications. That's the simple point. Am I right or am I wrong?

  • Thank you. Can I move on to something else, please. Morris Kallon you mentioned in your evidence when Mr Werner was taking you through it. What happened to Morris Kallon?

  • I left Morris Kallon in Gbarnga. When I left Gbarnga in 1996 he was in Gbarnga.

  • Yes, what happened to him?

  • In 2002 - I asked some people news of Mr Morris Kallon and they told me that he was killed. I left - when I left he was still alive in Gbarnga - in Liberia, I'm sorry.

  • And who were these people who told you that Morris Kallon had been killed?

  • My colleagues who were there, Liberian soldiers. It's the Liberian soldiers in fact who told me, but I don't know if it's true or not. They just told me that he was killed.

  • Let me just understand this correctly. When you went back to Liberia, you say in 2002, Liberian soldiers told you that Morris Kallon had been killed?

  • Yes, that's what I told you. It's the Liberian soldiers who told me that Morris Kallon was killed.

  • Have you ever been given any other information since 2002 about what happened to Morris Kallon?

  • No, no, I haven't heard anything since.

  • So you're not aware that he is currently on trial in Freetown in Sierra Leone before another division of this very Court?

  • I heard that there was a Morris Kallon in Sierra Leone, but I don't know if it's the same Morris Kallon or not because I haven't seen him. I don't know if it's the same Morris Kallon. I don't know if it's the same Morris Kallon I have met.

  • Do you think there might have been two commanders in the RUF called Morris Kallon and you just happened to meet one of them? Is that what you're saying?

  • I don't know. He's not the only - I don't think he's the only Morris Kallon in Sierra Leone. I don't know.

  • How many RUF commanders called Morris Kallon are you aware of?

  • I didn't have any assignment in Sierra Leone. I don't know Sierra Leone. I don't even know if there were other Morris Kallon in Sierra Leone. I cannot confirm that.

  • Mr Witness, counsel asked you if you knew of RUF commanders called Morris Kallon. He didn't ask about Sierra Leone.

  • I said that I heard of a certain Morris Kallon in Sierra Leone, but I don't know if it's the same Morris Kallon that I met in the Lofa Defence Force. I don't know. I can't tell you.

  • I am going to move on to something else now, please, Mr Camara. Yesterday you told us that when the investigators from this Court came to see you first of all they wanted to know all the occasions on which you had seen Charles Taylor. Do you remember telling us that?

  • Yes, I do remember.

  • And when you were first seen by them you told them that you'd met him in Libya?

  • Yes, I've seen - I saw Charles Taylor in Libya.

  • You also told the investigators on that first occasion that you had gone to Burkina Faso?

  • Yes, yes, I've been to Burkina Faso.

  • And you also told the investigators on that first occasion that Charles Taylor had been in Burkina Faso and had met with your leader Dr Manneh. Do you remember telling them that?

  • Can you clarify?

  • Yes, I'm trying to summarise the areas that you told - the subject matter that you told the investigators about in these different interviews. If you want me to take you to a particular page then I can do so, but for the moment, Mr Camara, I'm simply trying to summarise the issues concerning Mr Taylor that you told the investigators about. Do you follow? Tell me if you don't understand what I'm saying.

  • Yes, I understand. Charles and Dr Manneh indeed met in Burkina. They had a meeting in Burkina but I was not present so I was not present at that meeting.

  • Well, I will take you please to tab number 1, page 23628. Now can you see that page on the screen?

  • Yes, I see the page.

  • I want you to go seven lines down from the top. We have looked at this before.

  • Down, you said?

  • Seven lines down from the top of the page. In this first part of the page you were telling the investigators about your time in Libya being trained and then how you departed from Libya and do you see a sentence that starts, "Due to the political nature of the world"? Do you see that seven lines down from the top? Mr Camara, take your time but let us know when you've got to that sentence.

  • Go down please. Yes, yes, I see the sentence.

  • So you were telling the investigators in the first interview when you were telling them all about each time you'd seen Charles Taylor, you said:

    "Due to the political nature of the world at that time towards Gaddafi the groups were asked to leave Libya in 1989. They were transported by Libyan cargo plans from Tripoli to Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso. When they arrived in Burkina Faso Sanyang, Dr Manneh, and Taylor met and made an agreement to work together as brothers and a plan was formed. He", that's you, were not present for the meeting but you were briefed on this by your leader Sanyang along with all the other Gambians.

    I'm going to miss out the next two lines. You told the investigators then that Dr Manneh told you that you should combine with Taylor and Sankoh to gain support, "Taylor was the leader and he and Sankoh and Dr Manneh sat together to make the plan to work together in war or peace. And the plan was to enter Liberia and take control of Nimba, Bong and Lofa counties which would pave the way for Sankoh to launch his attack into Sierra Leone."

    Pausing there. You told the investigators in that very first interview of how you had left Libya and gone to Burkina Faso and your leader Dr Manneh told you that he and Mr Taylor had had a meeting and made a plan, but you hadn't been at that meeting. You agree with all of that, I'm sure?

  • Yes, yes, it's my leader who briefed me.

  • Then the very last two lines on that page please at the very bottom. You told them that Dr Manneh was based in Burkina Faso during this time, "and we were told to do as Charles Taylor wanted us to do". Do you see that?

  • Turn over the page to page 23629. I'm going to start three lines down:

    "Camara advises that from being within the movement he was able to make his own analysis of how Taylor was given the strong position amongst the three separate leaders and this he says comes from the support of Blaise Compaore from Burkina Faso and Kofi Balawa of the Ivory Coast."

    Just pausing there for a moment, who is Kofi Balawa?

  • There is - I think there is a spelling mistake. What I said - what I said, what I told the investigators, I said it was Felix Houphouet-Boigny, President of Cote d'Ivoire.

  • We could use some spellings here, please.

  • Certainly, your Honour. Kofi, K-O-F-I. Yes, I think it's Felix Houphouet-Boigny you want.

  • I said called Felix Houphouet-Boigny.

  • I can assist, your Honour, if you need it.

  • I would defer to Mr Werner in any French names or words of any sort.

  • I'm happy do so. So Felix, F-E-L-I-X, Houphouet would be H-O-U-P-H-O-U-E-T, and Boigny would be B-O-I-G-N-Y.

  • So the investigators got the name completely wrong despite the fact that you told them that it was Felix Houphouet-Boigny. Is that what you're saying?

  • It's a mistake, a spelling mistake I think.

  • Who made the mistake, you or the investigators?

  • It's the investigators who made the mistake.

  • Right, that's Mr Berry and Mr Haddad in October 2006. Just have a look, please, while we're on this subject, at tab 4, page 30770. Do you have that on your screen, Mr Camara?

  • Yes, I have the page, yes.

  • I'd like you to look at the last three lines of that page. Now this is an interview in April of 2007. It's the fourth time you'd been interviewed and we see that there's one investigator the same as the first interview, Mr Berry, and then a different investigator Mr Morris. Do you see at the foot of that page what's been recorded is:

    "The witness", that's you, "clarified that when he had earlier mentioned that Charles Taylor had support of other leaders it was the support of Blaise Compaore and Kofi Balawa, first elected president of Ivory Coast after independence."

    Did you tell these two gentlemen in April of 2007 that the first elected president of Ivory Coast was a man called Kofi Balawa?

  • I told them, yeah, I spoke about the first elected president but I said it was Felix Houphouet-Boigny.

  • Now if we can go back please to page 23629 in tab 1. This is where you were telling the investigators for the first time of all of your sightings of Charles Taylor and where we left off in the second paragraph in that page you then went on to describe your duties when you were in Liberia and I'm not going to go through them, but on that page you then move from Burkina Faso to your time in Liberia.

    Then you're interviewed again for the second time the following month in November and that's in tab 2 starting at page 25321 and again we've looked at quite a lot of this yesterday. I'm going to take you to page 25323. On that page you deal again with your training in Libya and at the foot of that page you say that, and I'm looking at the last paragraph on page 2532 - you talk about the numbers of people being trained in Libya and then three lines from the bottom you say that that they were the first group who left in late 1989 from Libya to Burkina Faso and that you left in the second group from Libya to Burkina Faso in late 1990.

    Over the page on 25324 you talk again of your time in Burkina Faso and about the meeting between the three leaders and what Dr Manneh told you and then over the page on 25325 you again talk about your time in Burkina Faso and in the sentence starting four lines from the top you said this - let me just pause before I read it to make sure that you're following. Have you got page 25325 on the screen?

  • Yes, I have it.

  • Can you see four lines down from the top a sentence that starts, "That the reason he stated that Dr Manneh"?

  • Yes, I see the sentence.

  • "That the reason he stated that Dr Manneh told them to take orders from Taylor was because he was the strongest and Sankoh was not vocal. He personally witnessed Taylor giving orders to all the fighters including Gambians and Sierra Leoneans, that even Sankoh was taking orders from the Liberian commanders."

    Then further down the page you talk again about Taylor having support of Blaise Compaore and the leader of the Ivory Coast and then you go on to talk about your time in Liberia. Do you see that?

  • Yes, I see the page.

  • In the third interview, tab 3 starting on page 26942, now in February of 2007, did the investigators Mr Berry and Mr Haddad tell you why they had come to see you for yet a third time, having already interviewed you twice? Did they say why it was that they wanted to see you yet again?

  • The reason why they wanted to see me, actually I don't remember even if they have told me.

  • Did they want you to give them more information about seeing Charles Taylor?

  • It's possible.

  • It's very likely, isn't it? More than possible?

  • Yes, I said it's quite possible.

  • They wanted you to give them more about Charles Taylor each time they came to see you, didn't they?

  • I cannot confirm unless you ask the investigators themselves. It's possible.

  • In that third interview you were asked about your time in Libya and the people who went to Burkina Faso. That's correct, isn't it?

  • Yes, yes, they've asked about people who went to Burkina Faso.

  • So you were being asked about both of those places in the third interview as well as Liberia. Do you agree?

  • What did you say, please?

  • In the third interview you were again being asked about Libya and Burkina Faso?

  • Yes, yes, they've asked me about both places.

  • And the reason that they were there was very possibly because they wanted you to give more information about Charles Taylor. I think you've already confirmed that, Mr Camara. Do you agree?

  • It's possible. I said it's possible.

  • Turn please then to the fourth interview, tab 4 starting on 30770. Now in April of last year. They were asking you again about what you knew of what Charles Taylor was doing in Libya. On that first page you talk again about Mr Taylor and Dr Manneh sleeping at the Mahtaba?

  • Yes, they were sleeping at the Mahtaba, because I found them there. I saw them there.

  • At the foot of that page, something we've looked at already, you talk again about the presidents of Burkina Faso and Cote d'Ivoire. That's right, isn't it?

  • Yes, I did say that.

  • So you were reminded of your time in Burkina Faso in that fourth interview, weren't you?

  • Yes, yes, they've asked me questions about it.

  • Can we move on then please to the fifth interview in May of 2007. It's right, isn't it, that it wasn't until this fifth interview that you say anything at all to the investigators about how you flew in a plane with Charles Taylor and a load of weapons and ammunition from Burkina Faso down to Man in Cote d'Ivoire?

  • Yes, indeed we took the same plane together to go to Cote d'Ivoire.

  • Well, I accept that it's in there, your story about how you flew down in this plane --

  • Mr Munyard, could you refer us to the precise passage.

  • Certainly, Madam President. It starts at the foot of page 38049. It's the very last line and it is the last six words, "It was now late in 1991", going over to 38050:

  • It's only in that interview that you remember being told by Dr Manneh to get ready to fly down from Ouagadougou in a plane including Charles Taylor and a load of weapons and ammunition, yes?

  • Yes, yes. Yeah, he informed me in the morning that I would be travelling with Charles Taylor.

  • How long did the flight last?

  • I can't tell you how long exactly.

  • More than five minutes?

  • How long were you waiting at the airport with Charles Taylor and his party before you boarded the plane?

  • We waited for a long time for Charles Taylor and his convoy.

  • And when they arrived how long did you spend at the airport with them before you boarded the plane?

  • Not for a long time. When he arrived they just boarded - we left when they checked the luggage on board the plane.

  • And you were on the plane with Mr Taylor and his party all the way from Ouagadougou to Man in Cote d'Ivoire, yes?

  • From Ouagadougou to Man, yes, we were in the same plane.

  • This whole event came completely out of the blue one evening late in 1991, didn't it? When I say out of the blue I mean it came completely unexpectedly that Dr Manneh suddenly told you, "We've got to be ready to travel tomorrow with Charles Taylor"?

  • Yes.

  • It was a very big surprise to you that Dr Manneh told you to get ready to travel at such short notice with the leader of the Liberians. Is that right?

  • Yes, because I was not informed at all before, because he had said that we are going for communication training at Poh, that's between Burkina and Ghana.

  • Yes, it was a very big surprise and would you agree that it was a very dramatic event and if you want me to explain what I mean by dramatic event I will?

  • Yes, yes, yes, of course, if you can explain.

  • It was an event that was unexpected?

  • I don't understand what you're saying.

  • Were you shocked to be told by Dr Manneh that you had to pack because you were leaving in the morning and you were leaving with Charles Taylor?

  • And it's right, isn't it, that this is the only time that you have flown in a plane with Charles Taylor?

  • Yes, that was my first time to travel with Charles Taylor.

  • That was your only time to travel in a plane with Charles Taylor, wasn't it?

  • Yes, yes, that was the only time that I travelled on board the same plane with Charles Taylor.

  • And the only other occasions on which you had ever seen him were for five minutes on two occasions in January 1990 when you saw him talking with Dr Manneh at the reception of the Mahtaba. That's what you've told this Court during the course of your evidence. So this trip to the Cote d'Ivoire from Burkina Faso was the longest time you had spent either in his company or seeing him in your life at that point, wasn't it?

  • Yes, that was the first time I travelled with Charles Taylor aboard the same plane for as - for such a long time.

  • And could you see him on board the plane during the plane journey?

  • Can you explain to the learned judges how it is that in the first interview in October, the second interview in November of 2006, the third interview in February of 2007 and the fourth interview of April 2007 you had completely forgotten about this episode when you were told just the night before that you had to pack your bags because you were going flying from Burkina Faso to Cote d'Ivoire and then on to Liberia with none other than Charles Taylor. How was it that you managed to forget this very surprising and lengthy time that you spent with him in those four previous interviews?

  • I didn't thought I was going to Liberia. I thought we were staying in Burkina. I didn't know that we had some people in Liberia. I didn't think of going to Liberia.

  • Right, would you now answer the question, please?

  • The one I asked you. How is it that you managed to forget this dramatic departure from Burkina Faso at just an evening's notice in the company of none other than Charles Taylor who you had only ever seen for two brief moments in January of 1990, how is that when the investigators asked you on those four previous occasions to tell them all that you could about your sighting of Charles Taylor did you forget to mention this dramatic episode of flying from Burkina Faso down to Cote d'Ivoire with him?

  • That was a long time ago. Personally I cannot put things into record. You know, I needed maybe suggestion to know that things happened. I have no special records of what happened and, you know, people forget.

  • Well, did somebody suggest to you that there might have been another occasion when you'd seen Charles Taylor because so far all that you'd given them was a tiny little bit of a sighting on two occasions in January 1990? Did someone suggest to you that they needed more from you about your dealings with Charles Taylor?

  • No, no, no, nobody suggested that to me.

  • Because I'm going to say to you directly you are lying when you say that you flew in a plane anywhere with Charles Taylor, least of all down to Cote d'Ivoire from Burkina Faso?

  • That's what you are saying but Charles Taylor who is sitting there cannot say that. I can swear that I am telling the truth. I am saying what I have seen, what I have heard. It's not because I'm scared of you that I'm going to lie in this Court. I'm telling what I know.

  • You've told us a great deal of what other people have told you, haven't you?

  • Yes, I am telling you what I have heard also, what I have seen and what I have done.

  • And what other people have told you?

  • What I have heard, that's what I'm telling you.

  • Stories you've heard from other people, you've told us quite a lot of those, haven't you, not just things you've seen or heard yourself directly?

  • Can the witness repeat, please.

  • That's your own opinion, sir. That's not my opinion and Charles Taylor knows that I'm not lying, that I'm not a liar.

  • I'm putting to you for the last time that Charles Taylor's case is that you are lying and whether or not you flew down in a plane with a load of arms from Burkina Faso I can't say, but Charles Taylor was certainly not on any plane with you. That's the truth, isn't it?

  • Charles Taylor can say that today because at that time - in this position now he can say. I know that what I told you, I have told you what I know.

  • Mr Camara, can I ask you for the last time how come you forgot to tell the investigators this dramatic story in the first, the second, the third and the fourth interview?

  • I said in my statement that when I left Burkina Charles Taylor - at that time Charles Taylor was in Burkina. My leader Dr Manneh told me that after the communication training we will go to Liberia.

  • I'm going to interrupt you. Did you understand my question? How come you forgot to mention this dramatic incident in the first, second, third and fourth occasions when you were interviewed?

  • It is in my interview, in my statement that I left Burkina Faso with Charles Taylor to go to Liberia.

  • Are you deliberately trying not to answer the question?

  • What do you want me to say? It's in my statement.

  • Why didn't you mention it before the fifth interview?

  • I told them that when I was - when I was telling them that I left Burkina to go to Liberia.

  • I'm going to move on. Now I want to ask you questions about the circumstances of you leaving Liberia. Why did you leave in 1996?

  • I had - I left with my leader Dr Manneh, our group - the members of our group wanted us to go to Senegal because at that time we couldn't go to Gambia. We wanted Senegal to play the intermediary for our group to be able to enter Gambia. That's why I left Liberia in 1996.

  • So you left Liberia in 1996 because you wanted to go back to The Gambia, not because you were fed up with your leader Dr Manneh. Is that right?

  • At that time we were - we had enough of the problems in Liberia.

  • Did you leave Liberia because you were fed up with Dr Manneh or did you leave Liberia because you wanted to go back to The Gambia with Dr Manneh? Which is it?

  • That time we had the problems and difficulties we had in Liberia, we're the only ones who know. You don't know what we went through, but we know.

  • Turn to tab 1, please, page 23632. Do you have that page in front of you on the screen?

  • Tab 1?

  • 23632 and can you count down from the top of the page 10 lines down where you'll see a sentence that starts, "That he returned to Gambia in 1996". Do you see that sentence there? Do you have that, Mr Camara?

  • Yes, yes, I've seen it.

  • And this is what you told the interviewers in the first interview:

    "That he returned to Gambia in 1996 and was placed in jail for three and a half years by his government before he was released. He returned because he was fed up as his leader Dr Manneh never came to give them encouragement and Taylor was just using them for anything he wanted."

  • Yes, that's what I said.

  • So you were fed up with Dr Manneh, were you?

  • Yes, because even Charles Taylor - I mean, left - there was a --

  • Can the witness speak more slowly, please, and repeat slowly.

  • Mr Witness, please repeat your answer slowly to allow the interpreter to hear you properly.

  • I'm telling you that there was a treason since the last meeting of our leader in 2002 - no, in 1992, in 1992. Since that meeting, when he left us at that meeting he never came back because of Charles Taylor. Since that meeting, as I said, we haven't seen our leader any more until 1996 when he came to Cote d'Ivoire. Even in 1996 he just sent some informations to people in Liberia. He didn't come in person.

  • When in 1996 did you leave The Gambia?

  • Liberia. I left Liberia in 1996. I think it was around 18 April or end - end April to beginning of May. Yeah, it was around end - by end April.

  • I'm sorry, I should have said when did you leave for The Gambia. But you say it was around April, beginning of May?

  • Yes, by end April. If my memory serves me right it was at that time that he came to Cote d'Ivoire.

  • Mr Munyard, there is a word Madam Interpreter said that I think nobody understood. When the witness said, "I am telling you that there was a" something "since the last meeting of our leader". Madam Interpreter, you said a word that was not discerned. I personally didn't understand what you said. Line 22 of the record.

  • Sorry, can I repeat? I think it was in 1992.

  • Can the witness repeat that part the judge is talking about?

  • Dr Manneh came to Liberia, we had a meeting with him in Buchanan. After Buchanan, before he left Buchanan it's Charles Taylor who disgraced Dr Manneh in Liberia. That's why I talked about treason.

  • You talked about what?

  • The judge was asking about treason.

  • Madam Interpreter, is that "treason"?

  • Yes, he said that Charles Taylor disgraced Dr Manneh in Liberia.

  • Please continue, thank you.

  • Since he disgraced our leader, when he disgraced him in Liberia, he left the country. He never came back. He came back only in 1996 and even that, he just went to Cote d'Ivoire. He went to Cote d'Ivoire and sent us a message in Liberia. We came to Danane and it's at that time he said that the President of Gambia was there and that he had discussions with the President of Senegal for him to negotiate for us for our group to be able to go back. But even at that meeting we Gambians did not agree because Charles Taylor had some of them with him because he gave them some privileges and they thought they should stay with him.

  • Mr Camara, some of the Gambians did stay. They married and stayed in Liberia and made their homes there, didn't they?

  • That was when the fight was going on. It's during the war that they had children. Even myself I had children during the war.

  • And some of the Gambians wanted to go back to The Gambia to see if they could overthrow the new government, didn't they?

  • I don't know. I don't know about that. I don't know anything about that.

  • Well, I'm now going to ask you a little more about when you left and what happened. Could you have a look, please, at tab 2 page 25328. Right in the middle of the page do you see a three line paragraph that starts, "That when he left Liberia"? Have you got that, Mr Camara?

  • Yes, yes, yes, I got it.

  • And it reads as follows:

    "That when he left Liberia in around February of 1996 he went to Senegal first where he was arrested around August as a dissident. He was later extradited to The Gambia around 1 July 1997."

    Now I'm not going to ask you about that for the moment. I'm going to ask you to look at another passage in tab 3, page 26943, right at the bottom of this page, please. Mr Camara, at the very bottom of this page, the last two lines, do you see a sentence that starts on the second line to the last, "After that training was completed"? Do you see that sentence?

    "After that training was completed he was reassigned to Charles Taylor's Mansion Grounds in Gbarnga for security under Mustapha Jallow. That he stayed there until he came back to The Gambia around November/December of 1996."

  • Yes, I see the passage.

  • Now did you leave in February of 1996 as we saw in the first of those two passages or did you stay at the Mansion Grounds until November/December of 1996 before leaving for The Gambia?

  • No, no. I left Liberia at the beginning of the year 1996. Beginning of 1996.

  • So can you explain how the investigators have recorded you saying in that third interview that you stayed at the Mansion Grounds until you came back to The Gambia around November/December of 1996?

  • It might be a mistake made by the investigators.

  • Another one. Another mistake by the investigators?

  • No, the year is correct but not the months, not November/December.

  • The month is a mistake is what you're saying, isn't it?

  • Yes, that's what I'm telling you. I left at the beginning of 1996.

  • So when it was read back to you why didn't you tell them, "No, it wasn't the end of the year, it was at the beginning of the year"?

  • It's possible that maybe I didn't hear it, I misheard it. It's possible.

  • Do you know where Charles Taylor was in 1996, what part of the world he was in?

  • Before we leave Liberia, around that period Charles Taylor left Gbarnga for Monrovia. He left Gbarnga for Monrovia. I think it's the second week after that we left Liberia. At that time - at that time he entered Monrovia. I don't know if it was as a vice-president or not.

  • Madam President, I will pursue this after the morning break because I imagine the tape is about to run out.

  • I think we've got three minutes left on the tape, but as it is approaching our normal break time and this is a convenient point we will take a break now. Mr Witness, we are going to take the usual mid-morning break and we will resume at 12.00.

  • [Break taken at 11.30 a.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 12.00 p.m.]

  • Mr Munyard, please proceed.

  • Thank you, your Honour:

  • Mr Camara, when do you say it was that Mr Taylor left Gbarnga and went to Monrovia to take part in the provisional government?

  • I said that Taylor left to Gbarnga in 1996 to go to Monrovia. I think it was December and we left Liberia two weeks afterwards to go to Cote d'Ivoire, and from there to Senegal.

  • In other words, it was December 1995?

  • No, December 1996.

  • You were in prison in Senegal in December 1996. Is that something you have forgotten about?

  • 1996 I was in Senegal, in December. Yes, I went into detention in that period in December.

  • So you can't have any direct knowledge of what Mr Taylor was doing in December 1996 unless he was sharing a cell with you in a prison in Senegal, can you?

  • I told that in 1996 we left, I think around April, Liberia. At that time he went to Monrovia.

  • He had already gone --

  • Sorry, Mr Munyard, is it "we left" or "he left"? Madam Interpreter, what was the interpretation? "I told you that in 1996 we left", or "he left"?

  • Can the witness repeat, please?

  • We left together with our group to Cote d'Ivoire.

  • And Mr Taylor had already gone, by the end of 1995, to Monrovia, hadn't he?

  • Yes, he left at that time.

  • He left at the end of 1995, I am suggesting, several months before you left for Senegal.

  • I remember I have the date of 1996 in mind.

  • Do you agree that you might have got the date of Mr Taylor's departure from Monrovia wrong?

  • Yes, yes, it is possible. I can't mean - it might be a mistake, but I do remember it was in 1996.

  • I am going to move on now to your journey from Liberia to the Gambia. You told us that you went to Senegal and that your leader, Dr Manneh, tried to enter negotiations whilst in Senegal. First of all, can you just help us with this: Are you related to Dr Manneh? Are you family connected to him?

  • Can you please repeat? I didn't get the question.

  • Is Dr Manneh related to you via your family in some way?

  • Yes, in a way, but not close family because his dad is comton [phon] Sanyang and my mother is from comton Sanyang. In our culture his father is from our place.

  • Who was he negotiating with in Senegal?

  • I was just going to ask for a spelling of that, possibly a place, or Sanyang.

  • The spelling won't come from me, Madam President.

  • Mr Witness, can you tell us how to spell comton Sanyang, please?

  • And "comton", that word "comton", what is it?

  • Comton is a surname. It is a surname.

  • Can you please spell that surname for us, Mr Witness?

  • It is comton Sanyang. His dad is a comton Sanyang, my mother also is comton Sanyang.

  • Can you spell it, Mr Witness?

  • The word "comton", something like that, please spell that word.

  • Comton is a Mandinka word. It is not an English word. It is a surname.

  • Well, how can we record it if you can't spell it for us? Can't you spell it in Mandinka?

  • So you want me to write the Mandinka for you?

  • Your Honours, my understanding is that in Mandinka "comton" means surname. That is why the witness is confused.

  • Thank you for that. Mr Munyard, I interrupted you. You were asking about a negotiation.

  • I am going to defer to Mr Werner on all matters Mandinka in future, as well as French:

  • Who was it that Dr Manneh was negotiating with in Senegal?

  • The President was Abdou Diouf at that moment, but the person who was our leader, the leader of the delegation, he was called General Wane, General Wane. He was the one who was the chief of delegation.

  • What was it that these people were negotiating for in Senegal?

  • General Wane went twice to Gambia, but he gave us some conditions.

  • I understand that General Wane is not spelt as O-N-E, is that correct? It is W-A-N-E.

  • No, it is W-A-N-E. But the conditions fixed with General Wane in Gambia, we could not agree on those conditions, according to the explanation he himself gave us.

  • Mr Camara, you had done nothing at all against the State of Gambia, had you?

  • If - I didn't do anything against the government.

  • When you left the Gambia you had not been involved with the group that was behind the coup attempt in 1981, had you?

  • No, I was not involved in the 1981 coup d'etat. I joined them in Libya.

  • When you left the Gambia you had not been involved with the group who had made the attempted coup in 1981, had you? You left the Gambia, not for that reason but because you wanted to better yourself financially. That is right, isn't it?

  • Yes, that is right.

  • By the time you left Liberia in 1996 the government of the Gambia had changed completely, hadn't it, from when you were there in 1986?

  • Yes, that is true.

  • Indeed, it has changed as a result of a successful coup by Yahya Jammeh?

  • Yes, that is true.

  • Senegal in 1996 was no longer part of a confederation with the Gambia, was it?

  • Yes, that is true.

  • So why was it that anybody had to negotiate for your return into the Gambia in 1996? You personally I am talking about.

  • Because at that time I was in detention and then I was also involved in the problems in Liberia, so at that time it was not easy to go back to the Gambia because of the government in place in the country.

  • You were not in detention when you went first to Senegal, were you?

  • No, no, they didn't arrest me.

  • As I understand it from the passage we looked at earlier in tab 2, at page 25328 - I am not going to ask for it to be shown again, we have all seen it this morning - you left Liberia and went to Senegal first and you were not arrested there until August. So, is this right: That you were in Senegal for a while before you were arrested?

  • Yes, yes, that is true.

  • What was it that you were doing in Senegal that caused them to arrest you?

  • General Wane had given us conditions for our return to Gambia and then we didn't agree with those conditions, so they told the leaders that they were going to continue the negotiations. We were there until one day the gendarmes came in where we were living in Tamba Kunda and they arrested members of our group and they said they had suspected that we were involved in a coup d'etat, preparation of a coup d'etat, in Gambia. That is why they arrested us.

  • Why did you never tell the investigators that you were arrested because the authorities said you were plotting another coup in Gambia?

  • I answered to the questions they put to me, that was all.

  • Mr Camara, the investigators wouldn't know what it was you were doing in Senegal. Only you could tell them why you were in Senegal and why you were imprisoned and you didn't tell them that you had been imprisoned because you were believed to be plotting another coup d'etat in the Gambia.

  • I told them that I was arrested, that I was in detention.

  • Yes, and you told them that you were arrested because you were a dissident?

  • Yes, yes, that is why I was arrested.

  • "Dissident" doesn't tell the investigators what it was that you were suspected of doing, does it?

  • We were just negotiating because they were the ones who suspected us of plotting a coup d'etat. That was their suspicions.

  • You and Dr Manneh, and your little group, had moved on from Liberia and you actually conducted a raid into the Gambia from Senegal, didn't you, and that is what led to your arrest in Senegal?

  • That is not true.

  • Did any of your group, under Dr Manneh, conduct a raid into the Gambia in 1996?

  • That raid happened at a moment when we were in detention, but everybody was not arrested in fact. Those who were not arrested, when we were in prison, four months detention, we heard that those people who were not arrested, six persons, those are the ones who conducted the invasion in Gambia, the attack in Gambia. They are the ones who did that because they couldn't enter Gambia and they couldn't stay in Senegal, and they had no papers, they had no IDs.

  • Did these people include the great leader, Dr Manneh?

  • I don't know. I can't say because at that time I was in detention. I was in detention. I had been in detention for four months at that time.

  • Did Dr Manneh get taken into detention, or did he manage to escape?

  • According to my knowledge, Dr Manneh was able to escape. He was not arrested and he went, I think, to Charles Taylor.

  • He wasn't in custody with you when you were arrested in Senegal. Is that what you are saying?

  • Yes, that is what I am saying.

  • And the rest of it is just what somebody else has told you?

  • I was in prison at that time, so nobody told me that.

  • You just told us that Charles Taylor - sorry, that Dr Manneh went back to Charles Taylor, but since you were in prison you couldn't have seen that yourself so somebody must have told you that. Do you follow?

  • I said that Dr Manneh and the men with whom he escaped from Senegal, Charles Taylor knows that person. That was in 2002 when I left Liberia. That was the guy in - who was commander of the ATU base. He was called Livingstone in Liberia.

  • So it was Mr Livingstone who told you the story of Dr Manneh leaving Senegal and going back to Charles Taylor. Is that what you are telling the Court?

  • No, it is Livingstone who went to Liberia and Livingstone was Taylor's in-law.

  • I am not going to pursue this, Mr Camara, but I wonder do you understand the difference between telling the Court something you actually did, or saw, or heard yourself and something that somebody else has told you about?

  • I said that Dr Manneh didn't go to Liberia, no, that is not the case. It is in fact Livingstone who went to Liberia, who escaped to Liberia. No, it was not Dr Manneh who went to Liberia.

  • So Livingstone told you later, did he, that he had escaped and gone to Liberia?

  • In other words, another story from another person?

  • I saw - I found the man there and he is the one who told me.

  • You were imprisoned in Senegal in what month?

  • If my memory serves me right, I think it was - I spent three months before I was arrested in Senegal.

  • You said in the passage we read earlier that you were arrested around August. Now, in what part of the year does August fall: Beginning, middle, or end?

  • Right, and you are not extradited to the Gambia until nearly a year later, are you?

  • Yes.

  • And for what reason were you extradited to the Gambia and then sentenced to three and a half years imprisonment in the Gambia?

  • That is the - an agreement between Gambia and Senegal.

  • What was the offence for which you were imprisoned in Senegal and then imprisoned in the Gambia? What was it that you were convicted of doing in the Gambia?

  • I have not done anything. I was a detainee, I was not a prisoner. I didn't do anything to go to court.

  • You were given a three and a half year sentence, weren't you?

  • No, they just detained me for three years and five months. They didn't try me and I have papers to prove that, to prove what I am saying.

  • What was the reason why you were detained for all that time in the Gambia?

  • At that time they were enquiring, making investigation, to see whether I was telling them the truth, or not.

  • Are you telling the Court that it took them three and a half years to decide whether or not you were telling the truth?

  • You had been part of Dr Manneh's latest plot to overthrow the government of the Gambia, hadn't you, after you left Liberia?

  • We never did a coup d'etat in Gambia. We never fomented a coup d'etat. It is Charles Taylor who pushed us. It was because of Charles Taylor that we were involved in the problems in Liberia and who created us problems also because Dawda Jawara at that time didn't want to hear of Charles Taylor.

  • Dawda Jawara was overthrown in a coup in 1994.

  • Yes, yes, that was a coup d'etat. That is a coup d'etat. That is why I am talking about coup d'etat.

  • So how has Dawda Jawara got anything to do with your leaving Liberia in 1996, either February, April, or November, depending on which of your accounts to the investigators is accepted? How has Dawda Jawara got anything to do with your leaving Liberia?

  • Jawara was not - Jawara had nothing to do with my staying in Liberia.

  • When you were arrested in Senegal and then imprisoned in the Gambia, your leader, Dr Manneh, managed to run away and leave you, the foot soldiers, behind to get caught, didn't he?

  • I left - when I left Dr Manneh was in Banta. Dr Manneh was not arrested at the same time as me.

  • Dr Manneh wasn't arrested at all, was he?

  • No, he was not arrested.

  • After you had been arrested in Senegal, were you hoping that Charles Taylor would try and negotiate your release?

  • No, no, that was not the case.

  • Isn't that what Dr Manneh went back to Liberia to see Charles Taylor about: To try to get you out of prison in either Senegal, or later in the Gambia?

  • That is you who are saying that. I didn't say that Dr Manneh went to Liberia for that.

  • I am suggesting that that is what went on, Mr Camara: That your great leader ran back to Liberia, after you had been arrested with your fellow foot soldiers, and - just a minute - hoped to be able to get Charles Taylor to persuade the Gambian, or the Senegalese authorities to release you. You knew that was happening, didn't you?

  • That is what you are saying. That is your opinion. That is not my opinion. I am telling you what I know. I had - I was not counting on Charles Taylor.

  • You were counting on Dr Manneh though, weren't you?

  • No, no. I knew that I had not done anything.

  • So you were hoping that Dr Manneh would be able to persuade the authorities that you had not done anything. That is right, isn't it?

  • We have democracy in that part of the world. If you haven't done anything then you will not have any problem. I knew that - you know, it would have taken long but in the end they would have released me because I didn't do anything. I knew that I would be released.

  • Mr Camara, what sort of democracy is it that locks you up from August 1996 to December 2000 if you have not done anything?

  • That is - maybe you should ask our government. I know that I didn't do anything and they didn't - nobody came to tell me that I did - I committed a specific crime.

  • Nobody came with the key to let you out of the cell for those four years or more, did they?

  • I was released in 2002 - 2000, sorry.

  • Yes and from halfway through 1996 to the end of 2000 is four and a half years.

  • I was detained but I was - my mind at peace because I knew that I would be released. I didn't do anything.

  • And you were angry that your leader had not been able to get Charles Taylor to get you out of detention for all those years, weren't you? You thought it was the least that Charles Taylor could do for you after the time you had spent in Liberia.

  • This is what you are saying. 2002 I left Liberia.

  • Giving evidence against him now is your payback time, isn't it?

  • No, it is not a matter of vengeance. I don't wish him anything bad. I am just saying what he did.

  • Let us look at when you returned to Liberia, please. Madam Court Attendant, can you turn to tab 2, page 25326. Do you see the top part of that page on your screen, Mr Camara?

  • Yes, I see that part.

  • I would like you to look at the second paragraph that starts three lines down from the top. Do you have that? It starts, "That while he was at Cobra Base". Do you see that paragraph?

  • Yes, I see that paragraph.

  • I want you to look at the second sentence.

  • You told the investigators that you noted that when you returned in 2001 to 2003 "they were still training Sierra Leoneans at the base." This is your return to the Cobra Base. Did you return to Liberia in 2001?

  • So why did you tell the investigators that you returned in 2001?

  • Maybe it is again a mistake. It was in 2002.

  • Whose mistake, Mr Camara, yours or theirs?

  • Those who took my statement.

  • Yet another mistake on their part, is it?

  • You yourself, I was telling you that you yourself made some mistakes here and you were saying - you were apologising for it, so I cannot blame you for that. It is 2002 and not 2001. That should be corrected.

  • When in 2002 do you say you returned to Liberia?

  • I think it was by the middle of the year, middle to end of the year, if I remember well. Yes, by the end of the year.

  • Could it have been as late as 2003?

  • No, no. I said by the end of year 2002.

  • Are you quite sure about that?

  • Yes, I am quite sure about it.

  • Could you turn, please, to tab 3, page 26950. Tab 3, 26950. Do you have that on the screen, Mr Camara?

  • Yes, I see that page.

  • I want you to go down to the third paragraph that starts with the words "He advises". Do you see that?

  • Yes, yes, I see the passage.

  • I am not concerned with the first few words, but the second half of that sentence, referring to you, says, "Before he returned to Liberia in January/February of 2003 from the Gambia." I am sorry, the microphone is on, it is just not picking it up.

  • Sorry, I forgot to close my microphone, sorry.

  • I will do it again:

  • Do you see that sentence there? Have you read it to yourself, Mr Camara?

  • Have you read that sentence to yourself, yes or no?

  • No, I have not read it.

  • Please read the first sentence of the third paragraph to yourself and I will then ask you a question about it when you tell us that you have read it.

  • Yes, I have read it.

  • You were telling the investigators in that interview that you returned to Liberia in January or February of 2003 from the Gambia, weren't you?

  • I said I arrived in 2002.

  • Are you telling the Court that you said that to the investigators, but they then invented January/February of 2003?

  • I said 2002. I arrived in Liberia in 2002.

  • Please listen to my question: Do you agree that the investigators have written down there that you told them you returned to Liberia in January/February of 2003? Do you agree that is what is written there?

  • I said I returned to Liberia in 2002.

  • Are you deliberately avoiding the question?

  • I told you, I am telling you that I returned to Liberia in 2002.

  • Mr Camara, you are going to stay there until I get an answer to the question I asked. Look at the printed page, please.

  • If they have made a mistake, I don't know, I cannot say, but I know that I returned to Liberia in 2002.

  • Is it written there that you told the investigators that you returned to Liberia in January/February of 2003 from the Gambia? Is that written there?

  • That is what is written, but I told them that I returned there in 2002.

  • So have the investigators invented the fact that you returned to Liberia in January/February of 2003? Have they made that up?

  • What is written there is - but the dates, there is a mistake in the date, but the rest is correct.

  • Have they invented the fact that you returned in January/February of 2003, yes or no?

  • I am telling you that it is a mistake, the date that they have written there.

  • You didn't tell them that you had returned in January/February of 2002, did you?

  • I told them 2002. I think they made a mistake saying that it was in 2003.

  • No, you didn't tell them that you had returned to Liberia in January/February of 2002, did you?

  • I told you I didn't say that. I told them 2002.

  • So it is not a question of them simply getting the year wrong, they have also got the months wrong. Is that what you are saying?

  • I am telling you this is not correct: The months and the year. The rest is correct, exact.

  • Can you think of any reason why the investigators would write down something as specific as January/February of 2003 if all you told them was that you returned in 2002?

  • It might be - I told you it might be a mistake. It is maybe a mistake.

  • Can you think of any reason why they would have made that very specific mistake?

  • I can just tell you that it is a mistake, the rest I really don't know.

  • The fact is you obviously told them that, didn't you?

  • No, I told them that I returned there in 2002.

  • The only sensible explanation for that appearing on that page is that you gave that information to the investigators, would you agree?

  • Yes, I am the one who told them to write it.

  • I am not sure, Madam President, if that "yes" was agreeing with me or not, but I am going to move on from this.

  • Please do, Mr Munyard. I think we have explored it well.

  • Sure. Can we move on to tab 8, please:

  • Before we actually look at tab 8 can I ask you this, Mr Camara: You told us, it seems like a long time ago now, but you told us when I was first asking you questions that when you were seen by investigators from this Court you received no benefits whatsoever except that your expenses were reimbursed. Do you remember saying that?

  • The benefits you are talking about, they didn't give me anything. You asked me if they had given me anything. I said that they paid my transport, but they didn't give me anything. They didn't give me any bribe. They didn't tell me that they were going to give me something if I accepted to testify.

  • What you actually said was that you had never been given anything other than the reimbursement of your expenses.

  • Yes, that is the answer I gave you when you were talking about benefits I received. When you asked me if I had received any benefits, or money, I told you that they didn't give me - they didn't promise me anything and they didn't tell me they were going to give me something. They just reimbursed my transport costs.

  • In 2006 --

  • Sorry, your Honours. He said something further.

  • And they gave him also some assistance.

  • They paid my transport, for my transport and then they gave me a little assistance.

  • "They gave me a little assistance" is something new and different from what you told us last week. Do you remember, Mr Camara, saying to us last week, when I asked you the question, "They have reimbursed your expenses, but they have not given you anything else in addition, is that right?", that your reply was, "Tell him that exactly that is what happens."

  • I am telling you, if my memory serves me right, the question you asked was that did the investigators promise anything to me for me to accept to testify. That was the question you asked. I told you no. I told you that they paid for my transport and they gave me some assistance.

  • You never told us that they gave you some assistance when I asked you these questions that first afternoon that I was questioning you.

  • Maybe it is the way you put the question to me, but it is normal that they pay for my transport and they gave me some assistance.

  • What I asked you - and I am reading from the transcript - was, "Have you, in fact, ever received any benefit of any sort for giving information to the Special Court investigators, or lawyers?" Your reply was as follows, "Tell him that these people, the investigators, normally when they came to the Gambia, what I can say, what I have from them was that my fare to go and come used to be refunded because I pay my own fare to see them. Apart from that I had no benefit from them." Today you are telling us that apart from that you did have some benefit from them in the form of some assistance. Why didn't you tell us, when I first asked you the questions, that you had some benefit in addition to the reimbursement of your expenses?

  • What do you mean by benefits? If you say benefits that means that I am in a deal with them when you talk about benefits and there was no deal between me and them. There is no business whatsoever between me and them. That is what I understood by benefits.

  • Mr Camara, you made it very plain, I suggest, on Monday afternoon that the only money you ever received from the investigators was the reimbursement of your expenses and nothing else. Do you agree?

  • They have given me - they have refunded my transport fares, but I don't think of that in terms of benefits because there was no deal between us. You must be thinking that there was a deal between them and myself.

  • Don't worry about what I may or may not be thinking. Concentrate, please, on the question.

  • I am telling you I am giving you my opinion. I am not - you thought that I was maybe in business with these people and that I got some benefits from them. That was not the case.

  • Mr Camara, don't trouble yourself with what might be going on in my head. On Monday I asked you, "Were you given to understand by the investigators that there would be any benefit for you, of any sort, if you were to tell them - if you were to answer their questions, or give them information?" That is the question I asked and this was your reply, "Tell him that what I was told by the investigators was that this is - this is something voluntary if you want to join, but I was not promised for anything that they will give me something, no."

  • That is what I told you. I told you that nobody promised me anything.

  • I then asked you the following question, "Have you ever had any benefit for giving information to the Special Court investigators?" You replied as follows, "Tell him that you are not hearing what I am telling you. I said I am not looking for any interest for this and I was not promised that they were going to give me something if I give evidence."

  • That is what I said. Nobody promised any benefit. When you talk about benefit that means, according to me, that means that there is something going on, a business, or a deal.

  • I then went on to ask you the following question, "I am going to ask you the question one more time only. It is a very simple question. Have you ever received any benefit for giving information to the investigators?" Now, at that point Mr Werner intervened and said that you had already answered the question. The Presiding Judge replied to Mr Werner as follows, "He didn't actually, Mr Werner. The first question was in the future, were you promised at the time, and this one is have you had any benefit? They are two different questions." The learned judge then allowed me to ask you the question once again. I asked you the question again, "Have you, in fact, ever received any benefit of any sort for giving information to the Special Court investigators, or lawyers?"

    You did not at any stage say, "What do you mean by benefit?" You gave the answer that I first read out to you when I began to ask you these questions. You gave the answer, "I used to be refunded because I pay my own fare to see them. Apart from that I had no benefit from them. When I leave they do not send anything to me in the Gambia as benefit." So in your mind you knew perfectly well what benefit meant, didn't you, on Monday afternoon?

  • What is benefit according to you? Because benefit, for me, is when you are in a deal with somebody. Assistance and benefit, for me, are two different things according - in my opinion, in fact. So, the way you understand benefit is completely different from the way I understand it.

  • Just in case that was the position I then went on to ask you a further question so that we could all be absolutely clear. The question I asked was this, "So the position is this: That they have reimbursed your expenses, but they have not given you anything else in addition, is that right?" To which you replied, "Tell him that exactly that is what happens."

  • That is - you said benefit. That is why I answered yes.

  • Mr Camara, I did not mention benefit in that last question. I am going to repeat it to you so that you understand what I asked and what your answer was on Monday afternoon. The question I put was as follows, "So the position is this: That they have reimbursed your expenses, but they have not given you anything else in addition, is that right?" And your answer, "Tell him that exactly that is what happens."

  • Yes, that is what I said. They refunded my transport costs, but the amount they gave me was a kind of assistance, assistance for me, because since I have started seeing them they said that it was on a voluntary basis so something which is voluntary, whatever they give you is assistance.

  • Do you mean over and above your travel expenses they have given you assistance?

  • Yes, that is assistance only. For me that is not benefit because it was on a voluntary basis, so the amount they gave me was a kind of assistance.

  • Do not get bogged down with benefit. We have moved on from benefit. The answer that you gave us on Monday was therefore untrue, wasn't it?

  • No, no, no, that is not true.

  • You were first interviewed in 2006 in October and November. Did you incur expenses in 2006 when you were being interviewed in the Gambia?

  • Yes, I got some assistance, help from them.

  • I want you to be absolutely clear about this. This is the first time they ever come to see you and then a month later they come again. Now, just let me ask you this first of all: When the investigators first made contact with you was it by letter, by telephone, or did someone turn up at your house and say they wanted to see you and interview you? How was contact first made?

  • The way I happened to know these people, the way they learnt of my - I was in Gambia. I don't know how they learnt that I was in Gambia. I just saw them when they came in the Gambia. They got my telephone number, they called me and I went to meet them.

  • And when you went to meet them did that involve you having to travel at your own expense?

  • I went to meet them and the place I reside are completely two different areas.

  • Right, we don't need to know where you reside, or where you went to meet them, but did it involve you having to spend money in order to go and meet them in this other place?

  • Yes, I paid. I paid my own transport to go and meet them in a different village.

  • Was that transport by road, or by rail, or for that matter by air?

  • Did it involve you staying overnight anywhere?

  • Yes, indeed. It is because I wanted to stay overnight, but I could have come back the same day.

  • Were you given expenses for your overnight stay?

  • They didn't even know that I would be spending the night. I didn't tell them that.

  • So they didn't give you any overnight expenses for that first interview. Is that what you are telling us?

  • They gave me something, but I didn't tell them that I was spending the night somewhere.

  • All right, let us just be clear on what they gave you. Did they give you money - did you have to pay to travel by car? Was it like a taxi?

  • Yes, yes, I had to hire a car.

  • You had to pay for that. Did you also - did you get reimbursed for that?

  • Yes, it was refunded.

  • Did you get a meal allowance for that day?

  • Yes, because the amount they gave me exceeded my transport cost. I knew that it was more than what I spent, so I thought that the rest was a kind of assistance.

  • What currency were you paid in?

  • Sorry, can you repeat that question, please?

  • Certainly. What currency were you paid in? What kind of money? Was it Gambian money, or was it United States dollars, or what was it?

  • They gave me some assistance. US dollars, in US dollars.

  • Mr Munyard, I am just concerned and I am seeking guidance from Madam Interpreter. Is the witness using the word "assistance" or "subsistence"?

  • In fact it is assistance, help assistance, not subsistence.

  • Thank you, your Honour:

  • What was the amount of this assistance, over and above the cost of you having to hire the car?

  • They gave me 100 US dollars.

  • On top of the money that you had spent hiring the car, is that right?

  • I always paid my transport myself. Since I have left my village, until I arrived, I always paid - I always paid my transport. They gave me the money and told me that it was as a refund and the effort also I made to come and meet them.

  • So you were reimbursed your expenses and you were rewarded for giving them information. Would you agree with that?

  • Yes, that was not a payment.

  • You were reimbursed your expenses, the cost of the hire car, and, to use your words, you were also given money for "the effort" you made to come and meet them?

  • So you were rewarded for the effort in coming to be interviewed?

  • And the amount of the reward, was it 100 US dollars only, or was it 100 US dollars and the cost of the hire car?

  • [Overlapping speakers].

  • What exactly do you mean, Mr Witness? Two propositions were put before you, which of these two propositions are you agreeing with?

  • I will repeat the question:

  • Were you given a total sum of 100 US dollars, or were you given 100 US dollars and, on top of that, the cost to you of hiring the car?

  • They gave me 100 US dollars as a compensation for the efforts I made and for my transport. That is what happened, in my opinion.

  • Mr Witness, does that mean you got a total of 100 dollars?

  • Yes, yes, exactly. That is what they gave me. That is what they gave me the first time I went to see them and whenever I met them later on they gave me some help.

  • Did you pay for the cost of the hire car in Gambian currency, your own money?

  • That is - in Gambia we use the dallasi. You cannot use the US dollars, so I had to pay in dallasi.

  • Madam Interpreter, it has come out on the screen as "in Gambia we use the dollars"?

  • No, the dallasi, the dallasi.

  • It is a different word that needs to be typed onto the transcript:

  • Mr Camara could you spell the dallasi, please, the unit of Gambian currency?

  • D-A-L-L-A-S-I, dallasi.

  • Thank you. How many dallasis did you have to pay, roughly speaking, for the hire car?

  • I am going to give you an estimation then: Something like 500 dallasi from my village to the meeting point.

  • And how many dallasis are there to one US dollar?

  • At that time the dollar was not so high. I think it was something like 1,000 - it amounted to something like 1,700-1,800 dallasis at that time.

  • So the rest of the 100 US dollars was your reward for being interviewed. That is correct, isn't it?

  • Yes, yes, I already told you that it was a compensation for the efforts I made and the transport I had to pay for.

  • The next time they saw you did they see you in the same place? Again, I don't need to know the identity of the place, but did they see you in the same meeting point, or somewhere different?

  • Yes, yes, I used to meet them at a hotel. I used to meet them at their hotel.

  • Did you stay overnight on the second occasion, now November of 2006?

  • No, I didn't spend the night. No, no, no, I never spent the night there.

  • So what were your expenses on the second visit? Was it just the hire of a car and a meal?

  • Normally when I see them, when I meet with them, when - if my memory serves me right, because they usually give me 100 dollars, US dollars.

  • Do you think that is what you got in November of 2006?

  • I don't remember exactly the exact date, but --

  • Don't [overlapping speakers].

  • They came on one of the occasions and on that occasion I told them about problems of the education of my kids and on that occasion they gave me some assistance also. I remember that. They told me that if I had any problems I could tell them so that they would try to help me.

  • Help you financially you mean?

  • Yes, yes. They gave me something for my kids.

  • I just want to be clear about the second time you were interviewed. Do you think now that you received 100 US dollars on that second occasion?

  • I didn't put that on record. I didn't record the - but sometimes they gave me dollars, but some other times also when they knew they had dallasis they would give me dallasis.

  • Mr Camara, I know that it was a while ago and I am not expecting that you necessarily kept records, but I just want to be clear, if we can be, do you think that on the second occasion, the second interview, also in 2006, that you were paid another 100 US dollars?

  • Yes, they gave me dollars, but I can't tell you exactly on which occasions because sometimes they gave me dallasis also.

  • Right. There is a reason for me asking you about those first two occasions and I can tell you it is this: That we have been supplied with written records of the money that you received, but the written records do not indicate that you received anything at all in 2006, so that is why I am having to ask you rather more questions about those first two interviews.

  • Yes, indeed, they gave me something.

  • Now, can I ask you to look at tab 8, please. On the first page of tab 8 we are looking at a document headed "Special Court of Sierra Leone, all Disbursements for Witness" and on the left-hand side, underneath the crest of the Special Court, there is an indicator "TF1-548" and we know that that is an indication that you are the witness that this document is concerned with. Do you understand that?

  • Yes, I do understand.

  • Have you ever seen this document, or something like it before?

  • No, they usually gave me a paper to sign to acknowledge that I have received money from them in a form of assistance.

  • I want us to look through this document, please. You will see that there are a number of boxes on each page. There are four boxes on each page. The first three on the first page have not been filled in and so we start with box 4 and in that box we can see the date of 27 February 2007. Now, I want to ask you this: When you were interviewed were you given the money for your expenses and your reward for giving information on the very same day that you were interviewed? Did it always happen like that?

  • They gave me that sum of money as compensation and for my transport costs.

  • Yes. Did they give it you on the day that the interview finished?

  • Yes, when the interview finished they used to give me the money at that time.

  • Was there ever a time when they travelled to your village to give you the money some time after you had been interviewed?

  • Coming to my village you said?

  • Yes, did that ever happen?

  • No, no, no. I am the one who used to meet them on appointment, no, but they don't know where - they don't know my village.

  • Was there ever a time when they didn't give you the money after the interview and so you had to go back and see them again to get the money on some later date?

  • Did it happen? Anything is possible, did that actually happen?

  • Yes, that happened.

  • How did it happen? Did you travel - let us break it down, first of all. After you had been interviewed, were there occasions when they didn't give you the money even though the interview had finished and you were ready to travel back to your village?

  • Yes, that happened. They said it was on a voluntary basis. I was not expecting them to give me something every time.

  • Well, they always reimbursed your expenses, didn't they?

  • Yes, they did refund my expenses. They refunded my expenses, yes.

  • I just want you to help us with this before the break: Was there ever a time when you were interviewed and they said at the end of the interview, "Sorry, we can't give you the money now, you will have to come back to see us in a couple of weeks time", or a couple of days time, or anything like that? Did that ever happen?

  • No, no. To my knowledge, usually when I met with them, usually they would stay for three, four days in the Gambia and sometimes at the end they would give me the money.

  • At the end of the interview, or later at the end of their stay?

  • Sometimes when they are about to leave the country, before they leave the Gambia.

  • Last question before the break: So you would have to go back to your village and then come back again some time later to see them to get your money. Is that what you are saying?

  • Madam President, on the computer it is about one minute to go.

  • I am watching this clock, but we will not split hairs, Mr Munyard.

  • I am in the Court's hands.

  • We will take the lunchtime adjournment and adjourn until 2.30. Madam Court Attendant, please adjourn the Court.

  • [Lunch break taken at 1.30 p.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 2.30 p.m.]

  • Mr Munyard? I apologise, Ms Hollis.

  • No problem, Madam President. I just wish to note that Nicholas Koumjian is not with us this afternoon. Otherwise, the composition remains the same.