The transcripts of the trial of Charles Taylor, former President of Liberia. More…

  • Mr Anyah, please proceed.

  • Thank you, Madam President.

  • Madam Witness, when we left off yesterday we were discussing how much money you made during your last employment. Do you recall that, Madam Witness?

  • Yes.

  • And you told us that each month you made 250,000 leones, yes?

  • You also confirmed for us that you had indeed received money from the Office of the Prosecutor since you became a witness in this case, yes?

  • And you became a witness in this case in November last, as in November 2007, correct?

  • Do you know the total amount of money you have received from the Office of the Prosecutor since you became - well, let me rephrase that. Do you know the total amount of money you have received from the Special Court since you became a witness in this case?

  • No.

  • May I have the assistance of Madam Court Officer, please. Your Honours, and for the benefit of counsel opposite, I will be referring to a document in the Defence set of documents. It is to be found in tab number 10:

  • Madam Witness, there is a section of the Special Court called Witnesses and Victims Section and they keep records of money that the Court gives to you. Do you see the document that is being displayed on the screen you are looking at?

  • If you look where it says "Subject" it says "Witness Expense Policy - Expenses made on TF1-585". That number, 585, is associated with you and counsel opposite would object if I was in error in saying so. Now, this indicates that you first arrived or became a witness in this case on 14 November 2007. Do you agree, Madam Witness?

  • Yes.

  • This document indicates that for what is called Witness Attendance Allowance you were paid 384,000 leones. Does that sound about right, Madam Witness?

  • The document further indicates that for Subsistence Allowance you were paid 9,434,000 leones. Does that sound about right, Madam Witness?

  • You were also given money for Medical in the amount of 324,000 leones, yes?

  • You were given money for Transportation in the amount of 689,000 leones?

  • May it please your Honours, just an observation here. I'm not sure whether the document actually says that the witness was given these monies, particularly with regards to Medical or Transportation. Although it says "Witness first arrived on 14th November 2007. To date, she has been paid a total of ...", I mean that broadly perhaps suggests that money was - these sums were paid to her, but I'm not so sure whether the area of Medical and Transportation clearly indicate that these were monies that she was paid.

  • Mr Bangura, she has actually answered the first question relating to Medical in the affirmative and, as you correctly said, it states she has been paid, so I think counsel is entitled to put the wording as he has put it and I allow the question.

  • Thank you, Madam President.

  • Madam Witness, this document indicates your were paid money for Child Care and it indicates that you received the sum of 1,434,000 leones. Is that correct, Madam Witness?

  • Well, like I said earlier yesterday, I am not actually feeling well. I am just trying. I'm not feeling well and the necessary medication that is supposed to be given to me I have not got that as yet, so I'm not feeling well health wise.

  • Your Honours, I'm in the Court's hands.

  • Madam Witness, we understand you did get medical treatment yesterday. You visited the doctor and were given medication and I'm sure the medication has to be spaced out. I note you say you're not feeling well. When you say that, are you able to answer this question? It is not a difficult question.

  • Yes, we went yesterday, but I was only given Panadols by the doctor and I had those for myself.

  • I was asking if you are going to answer the question put by counsel for the Defence.

  • Well, you asked me and I will try to answer.

  • Thank you, Madam President:

  • Madam Witness, the question I posed had to do with money given to you for Child Care. Do you agree that you've received from the Special Court's Witnesses and Victims Section since November last the amount of 1,434,000 leones for Child Care?

  • Well, they spent all of these monies on my behalf.

  • That's fair enough. And does that hold true for the category Miscellaneous and the amount 1,661,450 leones?

  • Yes, they spent all of these monies on my behalf.

  • And the same is true for Rent paid on your behalf totalling 6,940,000 leones, yes?

  • Yes, because even before I joined the Court I had a place for myself and I was paying rent and I was working. I used to get my salary. Also I have got a husband and the husband was taking care of me, so if the Court had requested me do something for them then it was their responsibility to take care of me. And I have children, I was taking care of them and being that though I was working I was taking care of my children, but being that I am now with them doing something for them it is their responsibility to take care of me and my children.

  • Madam Witness, when you say it's the Court's responsibility to take care of you and your children, it is true, is it not, that if you were not a witness in this case you would have had to pay for your childcare during the last ten months?

  • Yes, because I was working and I was receiving a salary and my husband support the children, but because I have not been with him for some time now and I have not been working for some time and I was working for the Court it is then the responsibility of the Court to take care of me.

  • You have just said in your last response that you were working for the Court. When you mean you were working for the Court, do you mean your role in this case as a witness?

  • That is what I meant.

  • This work you do for the Court, Madam Witness, is it something that you do five days a week, seven hours a day?

  • Well, I had been with them - 24 hours I had been with them.

  • Without telling us where you have been with them - and I'm assuming "them" means the Special Court - are you saying to this Court that 24 hours a day you have been with Special Court representatives since November 2007?

  • What I mean is that they have taken up my responsibility; that is we had arranged that as long as they wanted me to do what they wanted me to do for them then they were to take my responsibility to up to such a time that they will have completed with me totally.

  • Do you see the total amount of money that this document indicates has been spent on you in ten months? It says 20,866,450 leones. Do you agree with that amount, Madam Witness?

  • 20 million in ten months. If you were to times your monthly salary, 250,000 leones, by ten months you would get 2,500,000 leones. Does that sound about right to you, Madam Witness?

  • Well, the salary I used to receive was out of my personal business. The money I used to receive as salary it was for me, so I was the only person who knew what I did with it or what I did not do with it. My responsibility was up to my husband. He took care of me, he was responsible for me, he took care of my medication, my children's welfare, my children's schooling, but because they had taken me and I was now with them it was their responsibility to do all of those things.

  • My question is not whether it was their responsibility to do all of those things. You have your view on that and others have other views. My question is when you total the amount of money you make each month and you times it by 10, it adds up to about 2,500,000 leones, yes?

  • Yes.

  • So since November last until now it is fair to say that had you been working you would have earned 2,500,000 leones, but from the Special Court alone you have made in excess of 20 million leones, right?

  • Well maybe it would have been more than that because when I was working I used to get - I used to get extras and my husband was taking care of me, so if we had totalled all that I used to get maybe it would have been more than this.

  • Madam Witness, just be careful when speaking about your work not to go into too much detail. You are suggesting to us that you also received money from your husband, or you also would have received money from your husband, in the last ten months, and I am focusing on amounts paid to you and money that you could have earned by yourself excluding your husband. Do you understand that, Madam Witness?

  • Yes, I understand that.

  • Indeed do you understand that, in addition to this 20 million leones that the Special Court has given you in the last ten months, you have received money and financial support from others perhaps including the father of your children, yes?

  • So this 20,866,000 leones is the total source of income, or the total sum of income, you have received during the last ten months?

  • Is the fact that you have received this money something that has affected what you say in court, Madam Witness?

  • Well, I said they spent it on my behalf. They did not physically give it to me. They spent it on my behalf.

  • Very well. Madam Witness, when you testified on Monday - indeed perhaps you also spoke about this on Friday, the 5th - you spoke about three meetings that were held in Buedu by Sam Bockarie, correct?

  • Yes, I spoke about three meetings.

  • These were meetings called by Sam Bockarie and you said the first one took place some time in June of 1999, true?

  • Some times around that, yes.

  • And in respect of the second one you said it occurred around September 1999, yes?

  • It was in September that it took place, not in - all took place before 6 January. All took place before 6 January, the meetings.

  • Are you saying they took place in another year before 1999?

  • Yes, that is what I said. The last one took place in December, even before the 6 January invasion in Freetown.

  • When you say December, Madam Witness, in which year are you referring to?

  • I mean '98. 1998.

  • Were the other two meetings also in the year 1998, the ones in June and September that we've just discussed?

  • Well, those meetings took place in the same year. In the same year.

  • It would therefore be the case that the meetings in June and August - and September, rather, took place in 1998 as well, yes?

  • Well, I recall it that way.

  • Now the first meeting you said was attended by Johnny Paul Koroma and you said it was a meeting during which Sam Bockarie spoke about there being unity between the various warring factions, in particular the AFRC and the RUF, correct?

  • Yes.

  • The second meeting you said was attended by some vanguards, including Superman, Issa Sesay and others, yes?

  • Madam Witness, you have to give an affirmative response yes or no and not say things like "mm-hm" and the like. They cannot take that down correctly for the record. Do you understand that?

  • Well, the last meeting was for all vanguards and the second meeting was a mixed one. It included the AFRC and the RUF.

  • And what was the first meeting?

  • Well you yourself have said that it was to coordinate the two groups, that is the AFRC and the RUF, for them to come together and how to work together.

  • Madam Witness, was the second meeting held at a place called Waterworks?

  • Well, I know that the Waterworks meeting was the first one.

  • And the last meeting you said was the vanguards meeting. Is that correct?

  • Madam Court Officer, may I have your assistance, please. I'll be referring to documents in the Defence set of documents, the first one being in tab 2 at page 13:

  • Madam Witness, these are notes taken by the Prosecutor from meetings with you. In paragraph 54 it speaks about a meeting you told them about. It says:

    "A meeting was called by Sam Bockarie in Buedu and all the Vanguards attended including Superman, Isaac Mongor, Alfred Brown and others. Also present were Abu Keita and Senegalese. The meeting was held in the open and witness was there as she was instructed ...", and it goes on to say, "Witness said Senegalese was a ULIMO-J fighter and his commander was Commander Abu Keita".

    Madam Witness, did you tell the Prosecution this information?

  • Yes, but I think we had corrected that area.

  • That's fair enough. Madam Court Officer, shall we go to tab 4, page 5, please. Madam Witness, at the bottom of tab 4, page 5, these are notes taken from a later interview with you in March of this year and you made corrections to what appeared in the previous paragraph and this is paragraph 25 of this document. It refers to the ERN number of the previous page I've just read and although it says paragraph 34 that should be paragraph 54, but the ERN numbers are the same and the ERN number of the page I previously read ended in 4975 and the ERN number that this page refers to also ends in 4975. It says you made corrections to the information I just read and it says:

    "Witness clarifies that the meeting that Superman came to was the one held at Waterworks outside and not in Sam Bockarie's house. This was after Issa Sesay lost the diamonds in Monrovia and before the Fitti-Fatta mission. The witness did not attend this meeting."

    Madam Witness, this is the correction you're speaking of that you did not attend that meeting, yes?

  • I did not attend that meeting.

  • And if you read on it says, "It was at this meeting that discussion about Issa's punishment and the plans to retake Kono." Then it goes on on page 6 to say:

    "The witness's information on the contents of the meeting came from hearing Sam Bockarie discussing these issues before the meeting. The witness is not certain whether other issues were raised but recalls these issues being mentioned by Bockarie."

    Paragraph 26:

    "There were other meeting held months later with all vanguards. Superman was not present. This second meeting, which was held at Sam Bockarie's house. Abu Keita was present in this meeting."

    Did you say that to the Prosecution, Madam Witness?

  • I recall.

  • So in two of these meetings Abu Keita was present, yes?

  • Well at that time Abu Keita was in Buedu and I recall, yes.

  • When you say yes, let's be specific. Yes means Abu Keita was present at two of these meetings, correct?

  • Well, I do not recall any more.

  • But you have told the Prosecution in the past Abu Keita was present, true?

  • You confirmed to us yesterday in court Abu Keita is a Mandingo by tribe, yes?

  • You also mentioned to the Prosecution that Senegalese was present, yes?

  • And he was present at the vanguards meeting, correct?

  • Senegalese. He was present with Abu Keita at the vanguards meeting, yes?

  • Well, I do not recall that any more.

  • But at one of the meetings Senegalese was present, yes?

  • And you told the Prosecution that Senegalese's commander was Abu Keita, true?

  • Well, I do not recall any more.

  • Well, Madam Witness, I just read you what you told the Prosecution and I read you corrections you made to your original statement. Your original statement in tab 2, page 13, it says, "Witness said Senegalese was a ULIMO-J fighter and his commander was Commander Abu Keita", and then we get to the corrections, tab 4, page 5, and you do not retract that information that Senegalese was present and his commander was Abu Keita. Do you agree you did not take that information back?

  • Well, I had changed that information.

  • You did later on change parts of your information with respect to whether or not Senegalese was a ULIMO-J fighter, yes?

  • Yes, I changed it.

  • But at no point in time did you change the fact that you told the Prosecution Abu Keita was his commander?

  • Well, I recall that I said that.

  • You recall that you said what; that Abu Keita was Senegalese's commander, yes?

  • Well, I do not recall that.

  • Well, I just read it to you five minutes ago. Did that refresh your recollection?

  • Well it appears as if I had made correction in that area, but I do not recall any more.

  • Well, we will do this again. Madam Court Officer, could you put back tab 2, page 13, please. Madam Witness, paragraph 54, I just read it, last sentence, "Witness said Senegalese was a ULIMO-J fighter and his commander was Commander Abu Keita." That's what the Prosecution has you telling them between 19 November and 27 November. Do you agree, Madam Witness?

  • Well I told them, but I later made correction in that area.

  • Madam Court Officer, shall we go to tab 6, page 1:

  • Madam Witness, in paragraph 6 you made corrections to information previously provided about Senegalese to the Prosecution. This was in June of this year. Referring to the previous document I just read, which ends in ERN 4975, you told the Prosecution this in June:

    "Witness states that she does not know whether Senegalese was a ULIMO fighter or an NPFL fighters, however the witness knows that he was a Liberian fighter and had come to Sierra Leone to fight alongside the RUF. The witness states that she first met Senegalese in Kenema when Sam Bockarie was based there. At the time, Senegalese came to Kenema with Jungle, Sampson and Junior. The witness does not know why Senegalese and others had come to Kenema. The witness states that Senegalese moved to Buedu with Sam Bockarie at the time the Kamajors pushed the AFRC/RUF out of Kenema Town."

    Madam Witness, this is what you told the Prosecution in June of this year, do you agree?

  • Yes.

  • I go back to the issue. At no time did you correct your original statement that Abu Keita was the commander of Senegalese. Do you agree, Madam Witness?

  • Madam Witness, I did say to you yesterday you must sit up properly and speak into the microphone. Please do so and please answer the question.

  • Well, I am not well.

  • Are you well enough to answer that question?

  • I'm not feeling well. I am not feeling my health. I'm just managing.

  • Look, I'm a little puzzled as to what's going on here, Madam Witness, because we were quite concerned about your health yesterday and we obtained a medical report and the doctor says that there were no alarming symptoms, no fever, all you require is some Panadol and all you're suffering from is a minor viral infection and the doctor told us that there is no need to interrupt court appearances. Now, are you saying the doctor is incorrect and that you feel you should have further medical examination?

  • Well I am not saying the doctor is lying, but the way I feel now - since I came I have been attending court. This is - it's my body, my very self, so I don't know. He did not - I did not go through tests. I did not go through proper medication. I have been coming to court, but actually I'm not feeling well and I am not a doctor. I cannot prescribe anything to the doctor. I don't know actually, but I'm not feeling good. I am not well. Even my appearance will make that clear to you. This is not the way I used to appear. I'm not well.

  • Well, what's the situation? Do you feel as though you can continue in court, or do you feel you need some more medical attention?

  • Yes, I need more medical attention.

  • Madam Witness, would it help if we had a short break, let's say half an hour? You could get a cup of tea, or something, to help you and talk to the people in Victims Support and Witnesses Support. Just pause, Mr Anyah, and I'll hear you out. Did you hear me, Madam Witness?

  • Yes, I heard you. I heard you, yes.

  • I'll ask Mr Anyah what he wanted to say while you're thinking of your answer.

  • Thank you, Madam President. I just thought this might assist her in coming to terms with the circumstances with which she is faced. I do not expect that my examination of her will go longer than today and if she were able to it might actually be to her benefit to conclude this and then she would be free from the proceedings, rather than there being perhaps an adjournment and then she has to return at a later time.

  • That's most helpful, Mr Anyah.

    Madam Witness, did you understand what Mr Anyah said?

  • I will manage up to the time he has - you have spoken about, so maybe after that when we come back I will be able to complete today.

  • Good. Mr Anyah is the one who knows how many questions he has to ask and if we take a short break now, say 30 minutes to 25 to 11, and then Mr Anyah will be able to proceed and you yourself have heard his estimate. So we'll adjourn court for 30 minutes to 25 to and allow the witness to have a short break. Please adjourn court for 30 minutes.

  • [Break taken at 10.07 a.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 10.36 a.m.]

  • Mr Anyah, please proceed.

  • Thank you, Madam President:

  • Madam Witness, before we took the break I had left pending a question regarding your prior comments to the Office of the Prosecutor to the effect that Abu Keita was the commander of Senegalese. Do you recall that discussion, Madam Witness?

  • Well, I don't recall.

  • Did you ever tell the Prosecution that Abu Keita commanded Senegalese?

  • Well, I don't recall that.

  • Did you hear me read you notes from an interview between you and the Prosecution that confirmed you told them that Abu Keita commanded Senegalese?

  • I heard you read it.

  • Are you saying that the notes the Prosecution took down are in error, Madam Witness?

  • Well, it could be a mistake.

  • This meeting during which Senegalese and Abu Keita were present, was it the second or was it the third meeting of the three meetings you've testified about?

  • Well I don't recall now, but I know that Senegalese and Abu Keita were in one of those meetings.

  • Do you recall what the subject matter of discussion was in the meeting where the two of them were present?

  • Well, there were three meetings. I can recall the last meeting where the two of them were present. There were three meetings.

  • We appreciate the fact that there are three meetings and you're saying it was the last one during which Keita and Senegalese were present. My question is what was discussed during that meeting, Madam Witness?

  • I did not attend the meeting.

  • We appreciate you did not attend the meeting, but when you spoke about the meetings in this court on Monday you explained to the Court what happened or what was said at the meetings because you heard so from others who were present. So I ask you now what was said during that third meeting?

  • The meeting that I can recall was the last one where they spoke about unity amongst the vanguards.

  • Was that the same meeting during which they spoke about the Fitti-Fatta operation, Madam Witness?

  • Well, I can't recall now. No, it was not the same meeting that the Fitti-Fatta operation was discussed. It was in the second meeting that the Fitti-Fatta operation was discussed.

  • Was it during the third meeting that the invasion of Freetown on 6 January 1999 was discussed?

  • And this was the meeting both Keita and Senegalese were present at, yes?

  • Well, I can't recall. I can't recall that now.

  • Was it around the time of this meeting that the 40 to 50 Liberian fighters you spoke about on Monday, the 8th, that's Monday this week you told us about that, was it during this third meeting that they were present at?

  • Well, it was in the last meeting.

  • Who was the commander of these 40 to 50 men?

  • They were answerable to Abu Keita and it was in his compound that they were lodged. They were there.

  • On Monday you told us you knew that they were Liberian because they spoke Liberian English, yes?

  • Yes.

  • It is a fact however, is it not, that they also spoke Krio, yes?

  • Well, I don't recall saying that they spoke Krio. I said Sam Bockarie addressed them both in Liberian English and in Krio, but I didn't hear them speak Krio.

  • They did understand Krio, yes, Madam Witness?

  • Yes, they understood a little bit, but not very well.

  • When you spoke with the Prosecutor outside of court, you said that Sam Bockarie addressed them in both Liberian English and in Krio and you said that the Liberian fighters were able to understand Krio. Do you recall telling the Prosecution that, Madam Witness?

  • Yes, it's the same thing that I have said here. I said they understood it, but not very well.

  • For counsels' benefit I have just read from tab 6, page 2 and that would be paragraph 8:

  • Madam Witness, the difference between what you've just said here and what you told the Prosecution before is that here you are suggesting that they did not understand Krio well, but when you spoke out of court you did not qualify their understanding of Krio. You just said that they understood Krio. Today you're saying they didn't understand Krio well.

  • Yes, it's the same thing that I am saying, the same statement. Somebody can understand something, but cannot understand it very well. You can understand something, but to the level. There are two ways. You can understand a language but you may not understand somebody very well, but when the person may be speaking you could understand some of them but not everything or not the way that the person actually meant it. That was why he addressed the group in both English and Krio, because there were RUF fighters there, Sierra Leoneans.

  • It is possible, Madam Witness, that these men were Liberians who had lived in Sierra Leone for a long time before the day of this meeting, yes?

  • Well, no, I did not know that.

  • These men, you told us on Monday, the majority of them spoke Mandingo, yes?

  • Senegalese spoke Mandingo, true?

  • Well, I don't know that.

  • But the commander of these men, Abu Keita, was Mandingo, yes?

  • Yes, that was my understanding.

  • The Mandingo tribesmen and women are also to be found in parts of Sierra Leone, yes?

  • Yes, there are Mandingos in Sierra Leone.

  • There are Mandingos in the entire Mano River Union area, Liberia, Guinea, Sierra Leone going up the West African coast to Gambia and Senegal, yes?

  • Well, I don't know about that. It could be correct, but I don't know.

  • Have you ever heard - well, one more question about these 40 men. These 40 men were said by Sam Bockarie to be going to join Superman in Kono, yes?

  • These 40 men were going to be commanded by Superman, true?

  • Well, they were to report to him.

  • You told the Prosecution that the Liberian fighters would be going to join Superman in Kono and they would operate under him, meaning commanded by him, yes?

  • And you've told us before Superman was Liberian, yes?

  • Have you ever heard the name General Bropleh, before?

  • Yes, I heard the name, but I never saw the person.

  • General David Livingstone Bropleh. Where did you hear about General Bropleh before, Madam Witness?

  • Please repeat that.

  • You just said you've heard the name General Bropleh. Tell us where you heard that name before and in what context, Madam Witness?

  • Well I don't recall now where I was or what the context was, but I think that I have heard the name before. I can't recall now the incident around which I heard that word, but I can - I think I have heard the name once.

  • Have you ever heard of a group called the Special Task Force, Madam Witness?

  • In all your years as a radio operator for the RUF, did you ever hear any information over the RUF radio communications network concerning General Bropleh?

  • I don't recall now.

  • In all your years as a radio operator for the RUF, did you ever hear any information over the RUF radio network concerning the Special Task Force?

  • I don't recall. It's been a long time now.

  • Your Honours, and for the benefit of counsel opposite, I'll be reading from Defence exhibit D-26. Madam Court Officer is aware that I will be referring to this. She might publish it for everyone's benefit, but it will be brief. For the record, this is Defence exhibit D-26. It's a document excerpted from the final report of the Sierra Leone Truth and Reconciliation Commission. In particular it is a statement by His Excellency President Alhaji Dr Ahmad Tejan Kabbah, dated 5 August 2003, former President of Sierra Leone. I'll be reading from paragraphs 58 and 62. The subject matter above those paragraphs is the Special Task Force:

  • In paragraph 58, Madam Witness, President Kabbah said to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission the following:

    "The NPRC inherited from the APC regime the problem of ULIMO, but it too never settled it or attempted to settle it. All it did was to insist on the dropping of the J and K from the names of the two factions and to collectively rename them Special Task Force. The Special Task Force was then almost incorporated into the Sierra Leone Army and they received salaries, allowances and their supplies were regularly replenished. The two leaders of ULIMO-K and ULIMO-J factions, Alhaji Kromah and General Johnson, respectively, later became members of the interim government of Liberia headed by Charles Taylor."

    And I'll just briefly read from paragraph 59, even though I had said I would omit it. "59. The Special Task Force" - I'm sorry, your Honours, I missed the last sentence of 58. 58 states in the last sentence, "Brigadier David Livingstone Bropleh eventually became the new head of the Special Task Force." Then the first two sentences of 59 read:

    "The Special Task Force had its own command line separate from that of the Sierra Leone Army. Their personnel were attached to the army units throughout the country."

    And then paragraph 62:

    "General Bropleh and his STF followers fled together with other AFRC junta personnel when the ECOMOG led force removed the junta from Freetown in February 1998. Together they played an active role in all the attacks that displaced ECOMOG and government troops in such places as Koidu, Makeni, Kamakwie and Lunsar. They supported the 6 January 1999 attack of Freetown. On the recall of all military personnel in 2000 after the granting of the amnesty in the Lomé Peace Agreement, 1999, the STF resurfaced with General Bropleh still at the helm of the force."

    Madam Witness, the former President of Sierra Leone spoke about a group called STF commanded by General David Livingstone Bropleh as participating in the attacks in Freetown in 6 January. Are you aware of the fact that the STF played a role in the 6 January attacks?

  • Well, I don't know.

  • Are you aware that the membership of the STF were mostly Liberians?

  • Well, I don't know.

  • Do you agree with President Kabbah that the membership of the STF derived from ULIMO-K and ULIMO-J?

  • No, that would be difficult for me to say. I cannot say he was telling a lie, he was a President, but I don't know. It could be so, but I don't know. If I don't know something, I will not say something about it.

  • But Abu Keita was ULIMO, yes?

  • Yes, I knew he was a ULIMO.

  • And Abu Keita was the commander of these 40 to 50 men, yes?

  • Yes, they were lodged at his place.

  • You are aware of the fact that ULIMO were enemies of Charles Taylor's National Patriotic Front of Liberia, NPFL, yes?

  • Well I don't know, but I understood that ULIMO was fighting in Liberia.

  • And when they were fighting in Liberia they were fighting against Charles Taylor's forces, yes?

  • That's what I heard.

  • Have you ever heard the name Varmuyan Sherif?

  • Well, I have used to hear it for a long time. I heard it for a long time now, but I don't know when and in what circumstance. I heard that name. I used to hear that name. From when I was in Liberia I used to hear that name.

  • Madam Witness, do you see the point I am trying to make? You led this Court to believe that it was Charles Taylor that sent these 40 to 50 men, yes?

  • I don't know that one. All that I know is that they were Liberian soldiers and they came from Liberia.

  • Then you would agree with me that the fact that they spoke Liberian English and as you've characterised them you claim they were Liberians does not mean they were sent by Charles Taylor?

  • I wouldn't know that, but because at that time Charles Taylor was the President in Liberia I think - that is what I know because at that time he was the President of Liberia and he had the authority to know whatever was going on in Liberia.

  • So you're telling the Court that you surmised or deduced that because Charles Taylor was President of Liberia it is possible that these men were sent by him?

  • Well, he had the power to do that and the right.

  • May it please your Honours, when my learned friend makes - asks the question that the witness may have surmised or deduced, I don't know where he is basing this question on, on what fact, whether it's on facts that have been testified to by the witness in court. I'm not so clear.

  • Mr Bangura, the witness herself has said that he had the authority to know whatever was going on in Liberia, therefore I think counsel is entitled that - she has based that statement or that supposition on the fact that he was President and I think he's entitled to put the question as he has done, so I allow the question.

  • Thank you, Madam President:

  • Madam Witness, as you sit there now you do not know whether it was Charles Taylor that sent these 40 to 50 men to Buedu, true?

  • Well at that time, as long as Charles Taylor had contact with Sam Bockarie and he used to send his soldiers to Sierra Leone or to Buedu to Sam Bockarie, if I saw armed people or any group who were soldiers who had come from Liberia and they came to Sierra Leone to Buedu at that time I would think - I would just think that Charles Taylor had sent them.

  • That was the conclusion you always made whenever you saw troops you believed came from Liberia, yes?

  • Well, I wouldn't just think that way. They themselves said so, that they had come from Liberia. I wouldn't just say so like that on my own.

  • But the fact is they never said to you - and you haven't told us this before - that it was Charles Taylor that sent them. They said they came from Liberia. Is that your evidence?

  • Well that is what I still stand on, that they came from Liberia.

  • The fact is you don't know for a fact whether it was Charles Taylor that sent them. You just assumed it was Charles Taylor that sent them, true?

  • Well, I don't know.

  • When you say you don't know, you mean you don't know whether or not it was Charles Taylor that sent them, yes?

  • I don't recall that.

  • Madam Witness, the invasion of Freetown was a massive, massive attack against Freetown, yes?

  • Well, I was not in Freetown and I wasn't with the group that attacked Freetown. I was in Buedu.

  • I didn't ask you where you were. I'm asking you about what you know. You have told us during your examination that you used to listen to the BBC. You have told us you heard Sam Bockarie speak on the BBC about the 6 January invasion. You have told us about Gullit and radio communications between him and Bockarie regarding 6 January. I am asking you as a Sierra Leonean the attack against Freetown on 6 January was a massive attack against Freetown, true or false?

  • Yes, it was a big attack.

  • A lot of people died during that attack, yes?

  • Yes, many people died.

  • The fighting that went on between the various warring factions in Freetown was fierce and several fighters died, yes?

  • When you speak of these 40 to 50 Liberian fighters and you say they came from Liberia, does it make sense to you that for such a massive attack Charles Taylor would send as his contribution 40 to 50 fighters?

  • Well, that was not more than what Charles Taylor was doing. The 40 manpower was not as much as the arms and ammunition he used to send to Sierra Leone.

  • Let's stick with troop contribution, if you will. Let's call it that, contribution of manpower. Forget supplies for a minute. Does it make sense to you that his contribution to the attack on Freetown would be 40 to 50 men?

  • I don't understand that question.

  • I will repeat it. It's not complicated. As you sit there now does it make sense to you that, given the massive scale of the 6 January attack, Charles Taylor's contribution to the RUF forces would be only 40 to 50 men?

  • Well, I think it would even be more than that.

  • But what you know are these 40 to 50 men. That's what you know about, yes?

  • At that time the group that came from that place, I know about the 40 to 50.

  • Madam Witness, before the death of SAJ Musa it is true, is it not, that there was little or no communication between Sam Bockarie and the forces of Alex Tamba Brima, also known as Gullit, as they approached Freetown, yes?

  • Before SAJ's death there was no communication between Sam Bockarie and SAJ Musa, or Sam Bockarie and Gullit.

  • And this was during the lead up to 6 January 1999, yes?

  • Yes, before they attacked Freetown.

  • SAJ Musa died some time after 24 December 1998, yes?

  • Well I know that it was in December that he died, but I don't know the date. I cannot recall that. I don't recall the date, but I know that he died before they entered Freetown. That was on 6 January. He died before they entered Freetown on 6 January, but I don't recall the date.

  • But you are sure and you do know he died in December 1998, yes?

  • Well that's what I think, but I really don't recall now exactly, but he died before 6 January.

  • A witness has appeared before this Court, TF1-334 --

  • I think yesterday it was agreed or indicated that we just use the word "witness", Mr Anyah. Am I --

  • That is correct, your Honour.

  • Yes, but I believe this person was in open session. I led this witness. I will get the name. I am free to say his name actually. I'm just being cautious.

  • Your Honour, my understanding is that the agreed way to go about it generally, whether open session witness or closed session witness, is to simply refer to testimony of a previous witness in court and then say what was said.

  • I'm afraid I do not recall the name of the --

  • I know the name. I led this witness.

  • I'm sorry, I examined.

  • So we are in the Prosecution, Mr Anyah?

  • Yes, madam president.

  • But I'm leading up to asking did this witness testify under his or her own name? That's the question I'm going to ask.

  • Yes, they did, in open session, there were no protective measures and I cross-examined that witness, Madam President.

  • [Trial chamber conferred]

  • In those circumstances, if you assure me that is the situation, then the name - you can approach it as you are doing.

  • Thank you, Madam President:

  • Madam Witness, a former AFRC member, Alimamy Bobson Sesay, testified before this Court starting on 16 April and he testified through 29 April this year, and Sesay said that SAJ Musa died on or about Christmas Eve 1998 at an explosion in Benguema barracks. Are you aware of this, Madam Witness?

  • Well, I don't know about that. He could be correct, because I was not with them. I don't know.

  • As you sit there now, do you recall when Brigadier Mani began to facilitate communications between Sam Bockarie and Gullit after the death of SAJ Musa?

  • Well I don't recall the month, but it was after SAJ's death that they entered Freetown. I don't recall the exact month now.

  • The troops that were in the company of Gullit, these were AFRC troops, correct?

  • Well, it was a mixed group. There were some RUF fighters under Gullit's command, but a majority of them were AFRC. It was a mixed group. It was not exclusively AFRC. There were RUF fighters there as well.

  • The most senior RUF members of that delegation or group heading to Freetown were actually radio operators King Perry and Alfred Brown, yes?

  • Yes, at that time they were the ones I can recall.

  • The most senior RUF person in Freetown was actually not in the company of this group during the invasion. He was released from Pademba Road Prison and his name is Gibril Massaquoi, true?

  • Well it could be true, because when Gullit was going to Freetown he was the commander. He had the command to enter Freetown even before Gibril Massaquoi and others were released from the prison, and even when Gibril Massaquoi was released from Pademba he was also a boss in the RUF.

  • Madam Witness, Superman - Denis Mingo - never made it into Freetown during the 6 January invasion, correct?

  • Yes, from what I know they did not get to Freetown. They met around the Waterloo area.

  • And as you sit there now you do not know whether the 40 or 50 men you saw in Buedu in December 1998 who went to Kono to join Superman - you don't know whether they reached inside Freetown on 6 January?

  • Well Alice Pyne told me that all of them went with that group to Waterloo, but I don't know if they entered or not. She said they all went together with that group around the Waterloo area.

  • But those men were with Superman and Superman never made into Freetown, you agree, correct?

  • Yes, I have said so that Superman, they met around the Waterloo area with the others.

  • Madam Witness, you spoke about Sam Bockarie's departure from Buedu to Monrovia in December 1999. You recall telling us about that?

  • But before his departure you mentioned that he went on a trip to Liberia and upon his return there were about five trucks with arms and ammunition that he brought back with him, yes?

  • May it please your Honours, may counsel refer us to that portion of the evidence on which he has based this question?

  • Mr Anyah, can you assist, please?

  • I will try and look for it. I do recall that an issue arose when Justice Lussick sought clarification about the five trucks, whether they were trucks or pick-ups. That may have been in connection with White Flower and Benjamin Yeaten's house, but I think it also arose again in connection with the five trucks, but I am looking for it and I will be able to find it very shortly I suspect.

    Yes, there is discussion of this in Monday's transcript I believe on page 15662. Actually it begins - well, let me be sure of this because there are two issues being discussed here.

  • I have some notes on it on 9 September just before we went into private session.

  • Yes, I have found it, Madam President. On 9 September counsel was asking the witness questions referring to the previous day's testimony, and on page 15778 counsel refers to the previous day's testimony about the five trucks and then the witness answers providing more information about the five trucks and Foya airfield and so on. I don't know if that assists counsel. Is that the reference counsel was in need of?

  • Your Honours, the reason I asked for a reference is because I do not recall and I am unable to get it clearly from the reference given, but I do not recall that the five trucks that the witness testified about had anything to do with the previous visit by Sam Bockarie to Liberia. That's the point I was trying to make. That's why I asked for a reference.

  • Just allow me to re-read the - Mr Bangura, the question was before his departure he went on a trip to Liberia and upon his return there were about five trucks with arms and ammunition that he brought back with him. That is the question. I note from my notes that five trucks left but my understanding is five trucks did not reach Buedu, and if it's that difference that you're objecting to then I will ask counsel to put that more precise fact that was adduced.

  • I appreciate the point and I do see in the transcript - I do see where the distinction can be made. The point is - and I will get the witness to clarify this - I stand by the propositions I am making:

  • Madam Witness, first of all it is true that you have told us that in late 1999, after Sam Bockarie knew that he was going to be based in Monrovia, he first went on a trip during which he came back to Foya with five trucks containing arms and ammunition, right?

  • No, I said --

  • Did Sam Bockarie go to Monrovia in the late part of 1999 before his final departure in December 1999?

  • He went to Monrovia in December before ever he finally left for Monrovia late in December 1999.

  • So we're on the same page in respect of that. Now the second question, when he went to Monrovia this time before his final departure did he return back to the vicinity of Foya, somewhere in Lofa County, with five trucks of arms and ammunition?

  • No, I said that he went to Monrovia. When he returned, he returned by air and disembarked at Foya airfield where we received him with the vehicle. Jungle was the one who escorted the trucks and not all of the five trucks entered Buedu. It was only two that entered Buedu.

  • But the overall point is that on the eve of his departure from Liberia - from Sierra Leone, knowing that he was going to leave Sam Bockarie went to Liberia ending part of 1999 and shortly after he visited Monrovia Jungle brought five trucks of arms and ammunition to the vicinity of Foya, yes?

  • No, I did not get that one clearly.

  • These five trucks that Jungle brought, he brought them shortly after Sam Bockarie went to visit Monrovia, right?

  • Yes, but not all of them entered Buedu.

  • We appreciate that. Only two of the five entered Buedu, yes?

  • This was in the last part of 1999, yes?

  • It was in the month of December.

  • Do you know that a few months before in October - September/October 1999 Charles Taylor was mediating peace efforts between Foday Sankoh and Johnny Paul Koroma in Monrovia?

  • No, I don't know about that.

  • Do you know that in the late part of 1999 Charles Taylor on behalf of the Liberian government was part of the Committee of Six on Sierra Leone within ECOWAS?

  • Well, I don't know about that.

  • Madam Court Officer, can we show the witness Defence exhibit 23, please:

  • Madam Witness, this is an article from the BBC. It's dated 1 October 1999 and pictured there appear to be Foday Sankoh and Johnny Paul Koroma, but that might be open to - Foday Sankoh and I believe Tejan Kabbah, but that might be open to dispute. There is no indication underneath the photograph, but it says, "The peace accord was signed in Lomé in July". The BBC is reporting that around this time, if you go down on that page above the subheading "Jovial mood", it says:

    "Neither Mr Sankoh nor Major Koroma, erstwhile allies, have returned to Sierra Leone since a peace pact was signed with the government of President Ahmad Tejan Kabbah on 7 July, putting an end to a bloody eight year civil war."

    Then the next paragraph:

    "The two men held more than three hours of reconciliation talks in Monrovia mediated by Liberian President Charles Taylor on Thursday. Afterwards the two rebel leaders appeared in a jovial mood as they spoke to reporters. I am satisfied everything is fine now, Major Koroma said."

    Madam Witness, a few weeks before this time you say Charles Taylor was sending arms, or you imply that Jungle was getting arms from Charles Taylor to send into Sierra Leone, Charles Taylor was mediating peace between the warring factions in Sierra Leone. Are you aware of that, Madam Witness?

  • Well, all of these times that they're referring to that those are the times Charles Taylor used to send arms, or Jungle and others, to Sierra Leone, I don't know. I didn't know. I didn't know if that was the time, or even this one that you've just shown to me. I'm happy to have seen it today, but I didn't know at that time. I didn't know anything about it, but I'm happy to have seen it today.

  • Are you saying, Madam Witness, that it was not from Charles Taylor that Jungle got these trucks of arms and ammunition?

  • I'm referring to the picture, or the document, that you've shown to me. I said I was not aware of it, but the arms and ammunition that Jungle used to bring to Sierra Leone, Charles Taylor was involved in that.

  • That is what I'm asking you. BBC is saying that Charles Taylor was brokering peace between Foday Sankoh and Johnny Paul Koroma. You, Madam Witness, you are saying Charles Taylor was sending arms and ammunition. Do you see the contradiction in those two things, Madam Witness?

  • Okay, now I have seen the problem, but BBC would do that, or even Charles Taylor would do that, making peace between Foday Sankoh and Johnny Paul and still he could still send arms and ammunition to Sierra Leone during that time because that was in secret. It was not in public that whenever he wanted to send arms and ammunition he would announce it on the radio like when he would do when he wanted to make peace between Johnny Paul Koroma and Foday Sankoh, no.

  • But there is still a problem with your story, Madam Witness. According to you, Sam Bockarie knew he was leaving Sierra Leone for Liberia in a few weeks. In fact you told us his wife and his children were already being sent to Monrovia when these events with these trucks happened, yes?

  • I said Sam Bockarie sent his wife, his children and his mother three days before Sam Bockarie left for Monrovia finally. The night that the trucks started entering Monrovia it was the following morning that he finally left for Monrovia, but three days before then he had sent his family before he finally left on that day.

  • But the point is around the time these trucks were heading towards the border Sam Bockarie knew he was going to return back to reside in Liberia permanently, yes?

  • Well, yes. When the trucks entered, the time they started entering he knew he was going to Monrovia permanently, but he didn't know - according to him, he didn't know that he was to go there at that particular time. Do you understand what I mean? He didn't know that that was the particular time, that was the particular - that the nights that the trucks would arrive in Buedu it was just the following day that he would be going to Monrovia finally. He didn't know that at that time.

  • But at the time that this was happening Sam Bockarie and Foday Sankoh were having a feud, or a conflict, yes?

  • Yes, they had a problem.

  • And Foday Sankoh at that time was regaining leadership of the RUF in Sierra Leone, true?

  • Yes, at that time he had returned. Yes.

  • And it would be fair to say that these two trucks that made it into Buedu would be supplying Foday Sankoh's men with arms and ammunition and not necessarily Sam Bockarie's men, yes?

  • Well, the ones which entered first - because even before Sam Bockarie left for Monrovia he had arms and ammunition in the store. He didn't go with everything to Monrovia.

  • Madam Witness, that is not my question. If Sam Bockarie is leaving Sierra Leone to go to Monrovia and he knows he is leaving, then whatever arms and ammunitions are going into Sierra Leone he knows he will not be commanding the men who get to use those arms and ammunition, correct?

  • I don't know about that.

  • But the fact is shortly after these two trucks entered Buedu, Sam Bockarie left Sierra Leone permanently for Liberia, yes?

  • Mr Anyah, I've been watching the time here. We don't have our normal alert, but it is just about up to the time and this would be appear to be a convenient time, I hope, in your cross-examination to take the mid-morning break.

  • It is, but I did have the impression that we would proceed as usual. I mean - well, I understand.

  • I trust you didn't get that impression from me --

    MR. ANYAH: No.

  • -- because I bear in mind that also Mr Taylor I'm sure has a routine that cannot be easily interrupted, as well as counsel and the parties. So we will take the normal mid-morning break now, Madam Witness, and we will resume court at 12 o'clock.

  • [Break taken at 11.30 a.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 12.00 p.m.]

  • Mr Anyah, please proceed.

  • Thank you, Madam President:

  • Madam Witness, before the break we were talking about a visit made by Sam Bockarie to Monrovia shortly before his final departure from Sierra Leone to Liberia in December 1999 and I had asked you this question and you gave this answer:

    "Q. But the fact is shortly after these two trucks entered

    Buedu Sam Bockarie left Sierra Leone permanently for

    Liberia, yes?

    A. Yes."

    I'd like to pick up on that discussion. These two trucks that went to Buedu, do you know what happened to the arms and ammunitions that they carried?

  • Well, I just saw them off-load everything and they were put into the warehouse. I didn't know what happened to them thereafter.

  • How soon after these arms and ammunitions were off-loaded into the warehouse did Sam Bockarie leave Sierra Leone permanently for Liberia?

  • Well, it was at night that the two trucks entered and the following morning they were off-loaded even before we left in the afternoon.

  • Did Sam Bockarie leave for Monrovia permanently the day after these two trucks were off-loaded in Buedu?

  • The day the trucks were off-loaded was that very afternoon that he left finally.

  • Madam Witness, what you're telling this Court is that two trucks of arms and ammunitions are off-loaded and that very day Sam Bockarie leaves permanently for Liberia, correct?

  • I did not say the two trucks were loaded with arms and ammunition, no. The five trucks contained food, clothing and arms and ammunition.

  • We appreciate that, but I go back to my question. These trucks that contained supplies, food, clothing, arms and ammunitions, the two of them that arrived in Buedu, on the day after their arrival Sam Bockarie left Buedu permanently - left permanently for Liberia, correct?

  • The trucks arrived at night and the following day Sam Bockarie left.

  • And when Sam Bockarie left you said he left with his fighters, approximately 200 to 250 of them, correct?

  • He left with those men, yes?

  • Sam Bockarie left with the 200 to 250 fighters of his, correct?

  • I'm not asking you about the size of the men and your answers have been about that. I am asking you whether it is a fact that he left one place with these men to another place, the other place being Monrovia?

  • Yes, the group left Buedu for Monrovia.

  • So neither Sam Bockarie nor the men he was leaving with had the benefit of using these supplies that came in the two trucks, correct?

  • Well, before ever he left, he distributed some food and some clothing that the two trucks had brought to some soldiers who had relatives in Sierra Leone at that time and he also gave some food to the MP commanders to distribute them to old people in Buedu and shoes. He distributed most of the food items, but some still remained in the warehouse when we left.

  • Did you tell the Prosecution this when you spoke with them outside of court, Madam Witness?

  • No. The question that you have just asked me, the Prosecution did not ask me such a question and I only responded to questions that were asked of me.

  • Are you saying to this Court that Sam Bockarie knows he is going to Monrovia with his men, about 250 of them, and yet he allows trucks with supplies that his men might need to be driven all the way from Monrovia to Buedu and they off-load the trucks in Buedu and that's when they distribute the supplies and carry the supplies back into Liberia? Is that what your evidence is, Madam Witness?

  • Well, the question is not clear.

  • I'll be happy to repeat it. Two trucks with supplies, food, clothing, arms and ammunition, are on the Liberian side at a time when Sam Bockarie knows in a few days he will be heading permanently to stay in Monrovia. You are telling us that he allowed those trucks to go to Buedu, into another country, and it was only when he was in Sierra Leone they off-loaded the supplies and distributed to some of his soldiers and their families and then he crossed back into Liberia with the same soldiers and families with those same supplies that could have been off-loaded and distributed in Liberia. That's your evidence, isn't it?

  • No, I don't think you got me clearly. He went with some soldiers. Those that he went with he went with them together with their wives and children, and those soldiers had parents there. They were elderly people. He couldn't go with all of them, because he said it was Taylor who had invited him and he didn't know the reason why he had been invited and those people were elderly people. He wouldn't just go with everybody and they couldn't go. That was why he distributed those items to them. Those people whom he distributed the items to, they did not go with the items. The items were in Buedu.

  • Then why did you not answer my original question, which was Sam Bockarie and his 250 fighters did not have the benefit of those supplies that were brought in the trucks to Buedu?

  • Well, I wouldn't say they were - they did not benefit from it, because if you don't get something but your mother or father or your sister or brother got the same thing that means indirectly you get benefit from it.

  • Neither Sam Bockarie nor the 200 to 250 men that he crossed over from Sierra Leone into Liberia with directly received any of those supplies, correct?

  • The two trucks that entered, no, but the other food items, those in the other trucks on the way, they were taken back to Liberia and when they went back to Liberia before ever they went to the training base every month they were being supplied food and that was rice. Before ever they went to the training base every soldier received a bag of rice and 20 dollars, that is US, that was before they went to the training base.

  • Madam Witness, are you aware of the fact that in November 1999 at the request of ECOWAS Charles Taylor summoned Sam Bockarie and Foday Sankoh for a conference in Liberia?

  • Well, I don't recall saying that.

  • Do you know what the source of the conflict or friction between Foday Sankoh and Sam Bockarie was? Tell us if you know, Madam Witness.

  • Well, what I heard from Sam Bockarie was that the Pa had said that he wanted his position and Sam Bockarie said he was not fighting to become a rebel leader, or even President for Sierra Leone. He said he was fighting for Foday Sankoh to be released from the prisons and now that Foday Sankoh had been released from the prisons he was supposed to be appreciative of his efforts. He didn't want leadership. He was not fighting for that. That was what I heard from Sam Bockarie.

  • Are you aware of the fact that the source of the conflict between Bockarie and Foday Sankoh was the fact that Sam Bockarie did not wish to disarm?

  • Well, I don't know about that. I have told you what I know.

  • Are you aware of the fact that Sam Bockarie's relocation from Sierra Leone to Liberia was authorised and widely known within ECOWAS, the UN and the government of Tejan Kabbah?

  • Well, I don't know about that.

  • Are you aware of the fact that when Sam Bockarie indeed arrived in Monrovia, his presence in Monrovia and the RUF guesthouse in which he initially stayed were facts of common knowledge publicised in the media throughout Monrovia in December 1999?

  • Well, I don't know.

  • Now these 200 to 250 men you told us about, not all of them initially went to Monrovia with Sam Bockarie, correct?

  • Yes, not all of them went to Monrovia with Sam Bockarie at the initial stage.

  • How many of the approximately 250 went with him to Monrovia at the initial stage, tell us?

  • Well I did not do a head count, but I can say roughly around 50 stayed in Gbarnga. All the others were taken to Monrovia. That is just some rough estimate because I didn't do any head count.

  • If about 50 of 250 stayed in Gbarnga - rather, went to Gbarnga, then approximately 200 went with him to Monrovia, yes?

  • May it please your Honours.

  • Your Honours, my learned friend has asked the question about the number of men that went with Sam Bockarie to Liberia and he's put the number at 200 to 250. Earlier there had been questions about this same number and referring to men, but in a rather loose sense and the witness has been answering, but here counsel seems to be putting it specifically as though men here refers to the actual number of fighting men. That's my understanding of the question and that is not the evidence from this witness in-chief.

  • Perhaps if you could refer us to it, because the witness has on occasion referred to family members.

  • That is correct, your Honour, and that is the point I wish to make. In the witness's earlier testimony - I'm not immediately able to refer to the transcript, but in her earlier testimony, and I stand corrected, the number 200 to 250 included family members.

  • Madam President, this should not take long. I can clarify this easily.

  • Yes, that would be very appropriate.

  • Madam Witness, how many people left Sierra Leone with Sam Bockarie in December 1999?

  • Well, we were about 250. 250. That is men, women, children.

  • How many of the approximately 250 were fighters? Men or women, but people that were fighters?

  • Well I would say roughly around 150 to 200, around that.

  • Of this 150 to 200, how many went to Gbarnga?

  • Well, it was a mixed group at that time. Some family members went there and some fighters stayed behind and some family members stayed behind as well. I cannot estimate that one.

  • My question was not about the family members. We are speaking now of the 150 to 200 that were fighters. Speaking only in respect of the fighters, how many of these fighters went to Gbarnga and how many went to Monrovia?

  • Well, I would say the fighters were around 150. Around that, yes. Around 150 in number. I did not do a head count, but it was around that.

  • We appreciate that, 150 fighters. How many of those went to Gbarnga, Madam Witness, tell us?

  • Well if you took 150 from 250, about that, the remaining all stayed in Gbarnga.

  • Madam Witness, let's be specific here. The total number of fighters that went with Bockarie you've told us is between 150 and 200. I want to know out of that group how many went to Gbarnga. Tell us, please, Madam Witness.

  • Well, it was that. I did not do a head count, but majority of them went to Monrovia. It was only few of them that stayed in Gbarnga.

  • But those who went to Monrovia, were they as many as 100?

  • And we're talking here about fighters, Mr Anyah?

  • That's correct, Madam President:

  • Madam Witness, did you hear that? Were there about 100 fighters that went with Sam Bockarie to Monrovia?

  • I think so, because at that time I cannot recall the number now. But around that, I think so.

  • Separate and apart from this 150 fighters, there were people such as yourself and Sam Bockarie's family members, yes, that went with him to Monrovia? Yes?

  • Including the non-fighters, the total number of people that arrived in Monrovia with Sam Bockarie was how many?

  • I have given you the number.

  • Mr Anyah, perhaps I'm being pedantic, but didn't the witness say that the family of Sam Bockarie who you have referred to left three days before him?

  • You are accurate, Madam President, and she did nonetheless respond to my question, but for the accuracy of the record I can clarify:

  • Madam Witness, besides this 100 or so fighters, how many other people accompanied Sam Bockarie to Monrovia?

  • Well I did not do a head count, but I gave you the number for the entire group. I did not do an individual counting.

  • And that number again for the entire group that arrived in Monrovia was how many?

  • I gave you the number. I don't want to be as specific as you want me to be. I said it was around 150. Please give me time to explain. When you ask me a question, give me time to explain. I wouldn't just say yes or no and if I have something to explain I would have to explain. I would have to clarify it for people to understand.

  • I am being fair to you, Madam Witness, and I don't think I am cutting you off. It's a simple question. If you say you've given me a number before, I have the right to ask you to give it again and I'm asking you to give us that total number again.

  • It was around 150 to 200, around that. I am just - from 150 to 200, or around 250. I'm just guessing because I did not do a head count, but we were not up to 300.

  • Where did all these people stay once you arrived in Monrovia?

  • Well in Monrovia all of us were taken to ELWA Junction on 12 Houses Road where Jungle had first occupied, he and his wife.

  • Was this in Congo Town, or Sinkor in Monrovia?

  • It was not in Congo Town. It was Paynesville.

  • Paynesville leading towards Kakata Highway, yes?

  • Well I don't understand that area much, because when you come from the Red Light end you will go down, right at the junction to go towards the stadium, ELWA Junction. It's a renowned place. There is a junction, one road leading to the stadium and the other one going straight down to Congo Town and the other one going straight back to Red Light. It's a big junction. The road leading to the right, that is it.

  • Yes, Madam Witness. This junction, one road leads towards Samuel Kanyon Doe stadium and that's the same road that leads to Roberts International Airfield and Harbel, yes?

  • Yes, that is the junction.

  • The other road leads towards Paynesville and ultimately into Kakata Highway, correct?

  • Well the other one at the back going towards Red Light, it goes straight.

  • Well, there are three roads at this junction. One goes towards the stadium - and we've established that - the second one going to the right goes towards Paynesville and the third one goes towards Congo Town and Sinkor, yes?

  • The straight road, if you come from Red Light and if you go right ahead of you straight, it goes to Congo Town, Sinkor, straight. The one at the back, that is the Red Light way going to Kakata, just like you are saying. It's a small junction, a small road on the right, on the road leading to where everybody was assembled. That is this 12 Houses Road.

  • In any event, in the vicinity of Paynesville on the outskirts of Monrovia these approximately 200 people you said were housed in a place Jungle had, correct?

  • I told you that some people stayed in Gbarnga and I cannot tell you the exact number now. I cannot give you an exact number.

  • Forgetting those in Gbarnga, let's focus on those who went into Monrovia. You have told us they stayed in a residence or compound belonging to Jungle, correct?

  • That is the official house that everybody went, but most of the men were not even sleeping in that house because there wasn't enough accommodation and so they were putting up at some other places.

  • You referred to it as the official house. Are you saying that this was an official RUF guesthouse?

  • What I meant is that was the house that we were formally taken to. We who had come from Buedu, Sam Bockarie's group, that was the house that everybody was taken to, or that the vehicle - that was where the vehicle stopped and everybody disembarked. I was not saying that it was an official RUF house, but that was the house that Sam Bockarie and his people were taken to. That was the house that we met Sam Bockarie's mother, his children and even his wife. That's what I meant.

  • How big was this house, Madam Witness?

  • Well, the house was three bedrooms and a living room. There was a kitchen in there and there was a bathroom in the house as well. It was self-contained. It was a big space. It was - the compound, there was a big compound. It has a very big compound.

  • Are you suggesting that some of the people that came with Sam Bockarie had to take up residence in the premises of this house? Is that what you're suggesting, Madam Witness, because the house was not big enough to contain everybody?

  • You also told us that Sam Bockarie and his family stayed somewhere else in another house near where the former first lady of Liberia resided, correct?

  • No, I said Sam Bockarie and his wife were not residing in that house that I'm referring to. They used to sleep at YWCA at the junction right opposite the first lady's house. That was where he and his wife used to sleep. In the morning his wife would come, we would cook at the house and in the evening a vehicle would come to pick her up and she would go and pass the night.

  • You also told us - and this is the important part now, Madam Witness. You said to us a few weeks after Sam Bockarie arrived, Charles Taylor built a compound with four houses for Sam Bockarie. Do you recall telling us that?

  • May it please your Honours.

  • I did not tell you that.

  • Can I ask counsel to give us a reference. He says the witness said a few weeks after Sam Bockarie arrived and --

  • Is the dispute the weeks, or is the dispute the houses?

  • Basically it's the time period that counsel has alluded to as coming from the witness.

  • I can ask the witness:

  • Madam Witness, you testified about four houses. How soon after Sam Bockarie arrived in Monrovia did he have a compound with four houses in it?

  • I had earlier told the Court that when Sam Bockarie got to Monrovia, Charles Taylor bought a house for him and they were already building that house. We did not just go to Monrovia and immediately go to the place. We were there for about three weeks to one month, or even two months, before the construction was completed, because the house was not very far from where we were based initially.

  • That was my question and I phrased it as "In a few weeks after", but let's be more clear. Within three weeks, or about one or two months as you've said, Charles Taylor built a house or houses for Sam Bockarie. Do you agree?

  • I don't agree. I did not say he built a house. I said he bought a house for Sam Bockarie.

  • Fair enough. Charles Taylor bought a house for Sam Bockarie, yes?

  • Yes, that was what Sam Bockarie said.

  • And you told us there were four houses in this compound, true or false?

  • Madam Witness, another witness testified about this compound before this Chamber. The compound I'm referring to is the same one you are describing. That witness testified - and, your Honours, for everybody's benefit in keeping with the approach we've decided to adopt I will just give only the page reference. The page reference in question is page 7402 and I will be reading from line 8. Madam witness --

  • May we be - your Honours, again, just the date of that testimony that counsel is referring to.

  • I thought we were avoiding dates. We got a page number.

  • I think that was the approach, Madam President; just the page number only and not the date.

  • Yes, that's my recollection. I will have it printed out at some point. Please proceed, Mr Anyah.

  • Madam Witness, here is what another witness had to say about Sam Bockarie's residences in Monrovia. Line 8:

    "Q. You told us previously that Sam Bockarie was staying

    at the guesthouse, do you recall that? Correct me if I'm

    wrong, Mr Witness, did you say Sam Bockarie was staying at

    a guesthouse in Monrovia?

    A. I said there was a guesthouse that was meant for the

    lodging of the RUF personnel in Monrovia.

    Q. Where was Sam Bockarie staying at this time when you

    went to his house?

    A. There was a compound which Dr Magona told me that was

    built or constructed by Sam Bockarie himself.

    Q. Where was it?

    A. When was it?

    Q. No, where. There is Congo Town. There is Sinkor.

    Where in Monrovia was it located?

    A. I will describe the area. I will describe the area.

    From Congo Town, moving down to Red Light on your left

    there the compound was located. I saw the compound. There

    were four houses. One, two, three, four, and a barri like

    I said last was placed at the centre and it was under

    that barri that we met Sam Bockarie."

    Madam Witness, another witness told this Court that Dr Magona told him that the house or these houses in which Sam Bockarie stayed at near the Red Light area of Monrovia were built by Sam Bockarie himself. What do you have to say to that, Madam Witness?

  • Well, as I said earlier to the Court, I don't know the house that was near Red Light that was built by Sam Bockarie. I don't know about it. But where Sam Bockarie was right up to the time he left Liberia was what I was referring to. According to that witness that is speaking, that witness may be right, because according to the statement the way I understood it, the witness said Dr Magona told him or her. But what I am telling you I was not told by Dr Magona. I lived in that same compound with Sam Bockarie. What I am telling you is what I experienced, not what I was told or I was not shown the place. I had lived in the same compound. That's what I know.

  • But you would agree with me that it appears that this witness is talking about the same four houses that you are also telling us about in court today, yes?

  • Well, I don't know, because he or she also is talking about four houses, but when he or she is talking about Red Light area maybe it's - maybe it's another Red Light. And the way he or she spoke, maybe it's another Red Light or maybe Sam Bockarie built a house but I did not see a house that was built by Sam Bockarie. Even if he built a house I did not see it. The one that I know about was the one that Charles Taylor bought for him where he transferred to and all of us lived there for quite a long time before ever he left the place.

  • Do you know Dr Magona, Madam Witness?

  • Who is Dr Magona?

  • Well, as the name goes, I knew a Dr Magona that was a medical personnel.

  • Are you saying he was a medical doctor?

  • That was what I heard him being called and that was the way I too referred to him, Dr Magona, and I saw him extracting bullets from soldiers' bodies and fighters.

  • And did you see him doing this in Monrovia when you were there after 1999?

  • Well, he went to Monrovia as a doctor, but I never witnessed him doing this there. Where I saw this happen was in Buedu when we were in Sierra Leone. But when all of us went there, he went there as a medical personnel. That's what he said, that he was still practicing his medical profession, taking bullets from - taking bullets out from soldiers' bodies. I did not see that in Monrovia happen. What I saw was in Sierra Leone.

  • Did you know of a place called the RUF guesthouse in Monrovia, Madam Witness?

  • No, I never went there. I used to hear the name, but I never went there and I never knew the place.

  • In the place where you stayed at in Monrovia in December 1999, was Osman Tolo present in that premises?

  • No. From when I went to Monrovia I heard that Osman Tolo had been there, but I never saw him in person.

  • Was somebody by the name of Rashid present in the same house that you were in when you were in Monrovia?

  • No. I used to hear that he was at the RUF guesthouse in Monrovia, but I never saw him there and I never knew the guesthouse even.

  • Was there somebody inside the RUF guesthouse where you stayed called Jabaty, Madam Witness?

  • May it please your Honours, before the witness answers I believe there is a misstatement of the evidence there in that question.

  • Take care here, Mr Bangura. Counsel is putting facts to the witness. It may not necessarily reflect prior evidence.

  • Your Honours, if we go back to the question which counsel asked, it says, "Was there somebody inside the RUF guesthouse where you stayed called Jabaty".

  • I see the point you're making, yes. Slight rephrasing, Mr Anyah.

  • Yes, I can easily do that. I appreciate that:

  • Madam Witness, in the residence where you stayed at in Monrovia was there somebody called Jabaty present there, Madam Witness?

  • No. Where - the compound where I stayed, Four Houses, there was nobody called Jabaty there. I knew a Jabaty person or all of us went to Monrovia, but he and his family, his wife and all of his children were in Gbarnga, even though he used to visit Monrovia and return. Later, after he left Gbarnga, he rented a place in Monrovia near us, but not in that compound where we were. It was near our compound. He rented a place there. It was there that he and his family were.

  • Well, let me be more specific now. Let's do this piecemeal. Let's start with the first place you stayed at before you moved to the Four Houses compound. The first place you stayed at near Paynesville, tell us if Osman Tolo was there, Jabaty was there, somebody named Rashid was there and somebody named Freedom or Ray was there?

  • Well, please listen now carefully when I'm talking. The first house where we were taken to, at that time Jabaty and his family stayed at Gbarnga. We were the only ones at that house, even before we transferred to the new four houses that was bought from Sam Bockarie by Charles Taylor. And the house that I'm referring to where we transferred to, that is the Four Houses compound that was bought for Sam Bockarie by Charles Taylor, I never saw Rashid there or never knew that he lived there or even saw Osman Tolo there or live there and if - I heard that they were in the RUF guesthouse in town, but I never knew the place or I never went there. I think I have made that area clearly.

  • So your evidence is that in the Four Houses compound where you were Osman Tolo was not there, Jabaty was not there and Rashid was not there, yes?

  • Yes.

  • Was somebody by the name of Ray, also known as Freedom, present at the Four Houses compound when you were there?

  • Well, I don't recall that name even amongst that group that went, amongst our group. I don't remember that name.

  • Going back to the place where you stayed at in Paynesville, were any of these four people present in that place when you were there; Osman Tolo, Rashid, Jabaty and Freedom, also known as Ray?

  • Mr Anyah, just for purposes of clarity, are you saying they visited on occasion or they resided on occasion?

  • Madam Witness, at any time when you were at the place in Paynesville did you see any of these four people there; Osman Tolo, Jabaty, Rashid or somebody named Freedom or Ray?

  • Well, let me make it clearer. The whole area where we were, the first house where we were and the new Four Houses compound where we later went are all in Paynesville. It is not a far distance between each other. There were just few houses between where we were at first and where Charles Taylor bought for Sam Bockarie. There are just few houses in between. They are the same area. It is on the same 12 Houses Road. Where we were at first, Jabaty used to go there. When Jabaty would come from Gbarnga to Monrovia there was nowhere for him to stay because at that time his wife and children were in Gbarnga. It was at that first house that he used to come. They all used to have food there together. It was at that house that he used to go. But for Ray or Freedom, I don't know. Rashid - I never saw them there and I don't recall that they ever go alongside that group that Sam Bockarie went with to Monrovia.

  • Well, let me ask you this, Madam Witness: When you were in Monrovia after arriving there with Sam Bockarie in December 1999 you were still close with Sam Bockarie, yes?

  • Yes, I was the one who used to prepare his meal. I used to cook for him. I was close to him before ever he left Liberia.

  • Indeed, you were still functioning as his radio operator in Monrovia?

  • May it please your Honours, I believe - I'm not so sure how deeply my learned friend intends to go into this line of questioning. We have heard the witness testifying to certain facts in private session and those facts relate to roles that she performed and positions that she occupied, even including her period that she stayed in Monrovia. I'm not sure how far my learned friend wishes to go. I just wish that he be mindful of that fact.

  • I have not transgressed in any way on any delicate matters as far as I'm concerned. I am mindful of the issues that we are all attuned to and I just merely ask this fact and I believe this is in the public record on this case in any event, the role she played in Monrovia.

  • Mr Bangura, I think this is on the public record, but if you can indicate to me differently I will check it.

  • I think I received an answer to the question and I believe the question was simply whether or not she was --

  • Now, Madam Witness, the point is you were very close to Sam Bockarie and you were working for him when you were in Monrovia, correct?

  • What sort of work are you referring to?

  • Forgetting what kind of work you were doing, my question is you were close to him, true or false?

  • You were close enough to him to know the different people that would come to see him and meet with him, yes?

  • No.

  • You were close enough to him to know whether or not somebody like Dr Magona came to the vicinity where Sam Bockarie was?

  • Well, it was Sam Bockarie who went with Dr Magona to Monrovia.

  • While you were with Sam Bockarie in Monrovia, at any time did he receive Osman Tolo as a visitor?

  • I did not see him. I don't know. I never saw Osman Tolo visit him, no. I did not see that.

  • At any point in time did Jabaty visit Sam Bockarie when he was in Monrovia?

  • Sam Bockarie took Jabaty to Monrovia, so whenever he would come from Gbarnga where his family was to Monrovia he was at the house, not just visit.

  • Rashid. Did you see Rashid in the company of Sam Bockarie in Monrovia at any time?

  • No, I never saw Rashid come to Sam Bockarie in Sam Bockarie's compound, that Four Houses. I never saw that.

  • Did you see anybody by the name of Freedom or Ray, somebody a former bodyguard of Foday Sankoh, in the presence of Sam Bockarie when you were in Monrovia?

  • Well, I did not see that happen.

  • Madam Court Officer, may I have Defence exhibit 18. For the benefit of counsel and your Honours this is an exhibit, I don't recall if it's confidential or not, but given the sensitivity of what we have discussed it does have the prior witness's TF1 number and the date and I am proposing that to alleviate any concerns we simply put a covering over the TF1 number and the date and have it shown to the witness.

    Madam President, I'm sorry to --

  • [Microphone not activated] I think I see the part you are referring to.

  • Madam Court Officer, if you would just show it to Mr Anyah to ensure that I have covered it as he intended.

  • Madam Witness, do you see the photograph that appears on your monitor, what it depicts?

  • Have you seen any of the people pictured in that photograph before?

  • Yes, like Rashid. I knew him to be Foday Sankoh's bodyguard - his former bodyguard.

  • Who else do you recognise in that picture, Madam Witness?

  • Well I recognise Rashid, because the photograph is somehow - it is Rashid that I'm able to recognise.

  • You mean the person that an arrow has been drawn to and the name "Rashid" written over, that's the only person you recognise in that photograph?

  • Mr Anyah, if the witness is seeing the same picture as I'm seeing I don't see a name.

  • Oh, I see. Madam Court Officer, if you could hold on and I will switch to the document cam. I think I would be grateful if the picture actually remained as it was. Madam Court Officer, could you leave the photograph as it is. Thank you:

  • Madam Witness, you agree that there are five people shown on this photograph, correct?

  • Yes, I am seeing five people.

  • At the far left is a gentleman holding a teacup with a spoon in it. Do you see that man?

  • The man is holding something in his left hand. Can you see what it is, Madam Witness?

  • Well I see both of them having the cups in their right hands; the two that I see clearly.

  • Let's start with the one that's furthest to the left. That one's cup has a teaspoon in it, correct?

  • Well I see the cup in his hands, but I have not seen anything like a spoon.

  • Is there something in the cup you see in his hands? We are talking of the one in the left, Madam Witness.

  • Okay, yes, I see a white cup.

  • Well, there's a difference between the two men who are holding white cups. One is wearing a lighter shirt and the other one is wearing a brown shirt. Do you see the one with the lighter shirt, Madam Witness?

  • There's actually three men holding white cups, Mr Anyah.

  • I see the point now, Justice Lussick, but I am focusing on the one to the furthest left of the photograph.

  • But then you described one in a darker shirt and one in a lighter shirt.

  • There are two men holding white cups both in lighter shirts.

  • And that's confusing to the witness and I will be mindful of that, your Honour. Thank you:

  • Madam Witness, there is a man to the furthest left of this photograph sitting on a white chair holding a white cup in his right hand and something in his left hand wearing a light shirt. Do you see that man, Madam Witness?

  • Have you seen that man before?

  • Well, I do not recall whether I had seen him before. Even if I had seen him before I do not recall because the photograph itself is not very clear to me, so I will not be able to understand him through this photograph.

  • Are you saying to the Court you do not recall whether or not you have seen that man before?

  • Well, even if I had seen him before, I do not recognise him in this photograph.

  • That's the point. It's not whether you have seen him before. You do not recognise what you're looking at as far as that man is concerned in this photograph, correct?

  • Yes, I am unable to do that. I don't think I know him and I don't even believe that if I had seen him before through this photograph.

  • The man next to him, the man that is directly next to him in this photograph, can you describe something you see him wearing, Madam Witness?

  • Well, I see something like a black and white T-shirt. It has a black colour. I don't know whether if that is the one you are referring to, or if that is how you see it too.

  • Yes, that's the one I'm referring to and that is how I see it. Have you seen that man before, Madam Witness?

  • Well, I do not recognise the face any more even if I had seen him before.

  • I'm not asking even if you have seen him before. I'm not asking a hypothetical. It's a straightforward question. Have you ever seen that man before, yes or no?

  • I said no, I do not remember the face.

  • The person immediately to the left of the man with the white and black T-shirt, a gentleman sitting in blue jeans, sitting while wearing blue jeans, can you describe what he's wearing above his jeans?

  • Which one are you referring to?

  • The one that is directly next to the man with the blue and white T-shirt, what kind of shirt is he wearing? He is looking straight at the person taking the picture.

  • Is this the gentleman in the middle, Mr Anyah? Right.

  • Madam Witness, we are referring to the man in the centre. He has two men to his left and two men to his right. He is in the middle. Describe what he's wearing on top.

  • Well, I see a white and blue T-shirt with a blue jeans and a sneakers. I don't know whether that is his foot, but I see something like a sneakers, a jean --

  • Your Honours, I don't know whether this might help, but if there is a way we can have the witness sit and use the projector but without the projector showing the witness; a way that the witness can point to the persons that she recognises. Maybe not the projector, because I am not sure --

  • Well, your Honours, if your Honours please, there are already inscriptions on this photograph and this is the best way to proceed in the absence of a clean photograph that we do not have. So I would object to that because the inscriptions would lead the witness to the identity of those pictured.

  • I think the whole purpose is not to lead her, Mr Bangura.

  • I get the point, your Honour.

  • Madam Witness, the man you just described wearing the blue and white T-shirt, have you seen that man before?

  • Well, no, because he does not appear as somebody that I had seen before, because the photograph itself is not clear.

  • Is it that the photograph is not clear or is it that you have not seen him before? Which is it?

  • Well, the photograph is blurred for me to be able to fully recognise him. When they placed the photograph in front of me the one I am able to recognise was Rashid. Just when I saw the photograph, straight off I was able to recognise him, and that is Rashid.

  • Rashid is which of the five men? Describe what he's wearing on top.

  • Well, I see him having on a brown shirt.

  • And he is holding a white teacup in his hand, right?

  • And he is second if you count from the right of this photograph, correct?

  • So when I asked you initially when this line of questioning started which of the five men you recognised in this photograph the answer is only Rashid, correct?

  • Yes, he is the one I am able to recognise in this photograph.

  • Your Honours, I just want the record to reflect again that this is Defence exhibit D-18, Madam President.

  • Yes, that will be noted.

  • Thank you, your Honours. Thank you, Madam Court Officer. Well, I'm sorry, one more question if your Honours please about the photograph, yes:

  • Madam Witness, do you recognise the inside of that house that is pictured in that photograph?

  • Well, I do not know where this photograph was taken. I do not know anything about the inside of this house.

  • The RUF guesthouse that you spoke about very briefly early this morning, or a few minutes ago, rather, have you ever been to the RUF guesthouse in Monrovia?

  • No, I never knew there and I never visited there.

  • And of all the names I mentioned before, Rashid, Osman Tolo, Jabaty and Freedom or Ray, the only person you told us that you knew came to meet with Sam Bockarie you said came from Gbarnga and that was Osman - you said that was Jabaty, correct?

  • Yes. The Jabaty that I have been referring to was the same Jabaty that Sam Bockarie went with to Monrovia and he was the one I referred to in my statement that he was the one that was in charge of the second warehouse in Buedu and he was Sam Bockarie's bodyguard.

  • Thank you, Madam Court Officer:

  • Madam Witness, how long did Sam Bockarie stay in Monrovia before he went to the Ivory Coast? I'm talking from December 1999 when he arrives, how long did he stay in Monrovia before leaving for the Cote d'Ivoire?

  • Well, I cannot be able to count that now but from December 1999 he was there up to the year 2000. It was around either late 2000 or around 2001 that he left Monrovia.

  • And you recall telling us yesterday that despite what Sam Bockarie's autopsy report states you hold the position that he died in 2002, yes?

  • Yes, that is what I believe.

  • When Sam Bockarie left Monrovia, do you know if he went directly to the Ivory Coast?

  • Well, I heard that he passed through Ivory Coast and went to Libya, so I do not know whether he was in Ivory Coast throughout but that was what I heard. I heard that we went through Ivory Coast.

  • From whom did you hear that he went through Ivory Coast to Libya?

  • Well, from his wife.

  • Do you know how long he stayed in Libya?

  • You told us that you went to join Sam Bockarie in the Ivory Coast, yes?

  • In what month and in what year did you go to join Sam Bockarie in the Ivory Coast?

  • Well, I recall that it was in 2002, early 2002, that I went there and met him there, but I do not actually recall the month.

  • Early 2002, the same year that you claim he died in, correct?

  • Madam Witness, I'm not asking you if you recall that. I'm asking you if you are saying to us that the year you went to join Sam Bockarie in the Ivory Coast is the same year during which he died, 2002?

  • When Sam Bockarie left Monrovia on this trip you said he passed through the Ivory Coast to Libya how many men, I mean fighters, fighters, did he leave with?

  • Well, I only knew about a boy - a fighter that he went with who was called Junior. He was a small boy and they used to call him Small Blood.

  • Did Sam Bockarie's family, his wife and children, leave Monrovia with him as he left for Ivory Coast and ultimately to Libya?

  • I do not understand that area.

  • On the occasion of Sam Bockarie's departure from Monrovia to Ivory Coast and then to Libya did his wife and children go with him when he was leaving?

  • No, all of them stayed in Monrovia. He alone went, together with that small boy.

  • When you went to join Sam Bockarie in the Ivory Coast in 2002 how many people did you go with, whether they are fighters or not?

  • Well, we were up to - because they came with a vehicle, a pick-up, we were up to eight, between eight and ten, because we were in a pick-up.

  • And which part of the Cote d'Ivoire did you go to?

  • Well, we went passed Danané and we went to Man and I stopped at Man.

  • And which part of the Ivory Coast was Sam Bockarie at?

  • Well, at the time I went, I heard that he was in - I don't know Kolonko [phon] or Kolombo [phon], but I did not go there, so I don't know whether it is Kolonko or Kolombo.

  • You said you passed Danané and you went to a place called Man. Was Sam Bockarie at that place that you went to?

  • Well, at the time I went there I did not meet him there. That was the same time they told me that he was I think - they said he was, I think, at Kolonko and that was the same night again that he came passed through Man and went to Danané.

  • Did you and the people you were with end up in Danané with Sam Bockarie?

  • Later, yes, because I was at Man when he came and passed through there and went to Danané and the following morning we went there.

  • So it is fair to say that everybody in the company of Sam Bockarie ended up at Danané, the Ivory Coast?

  • No, some stayed at Man and some were in Danané.

  • How many people were with him in Danané and how many stayed at Man?

  • Well, that I cannot tell. I don't know the amount.

  • You told us that some of the people in Sam Bockarie's company were his fighters, yes? I mean when he was in the Ivory Coast, yes?

  • At Ivory Coast - in Ivory Coast at what time?

  • This occasion in 2002 when you went to join him Sam Bockarie had fighters with him in the Ivory Coast and they were engaged in a conflict with the government forces of the Ivory Coast, yes?

  • Yes, I met some of his fighters in Man and some were in Danané and by then they were fighting against the government and that was the Ivory Coast government.

  • And you said something important when you testified this week. You said that up until the day you were testifying on, I believe it was Monday, you still do not know the reason for Sam Bockarie fighting in the Ivory Coast, yes?

  • Well, I think they asked me whether I knew the person Sam Bockarie was fighting for in Ivory Coast. That is what I recall.

  • Exactly, and your response was up until this day you do not know the person he was fighting for in Ivory Coast, correct?

  • Yes, I did not know who Sam Bockarie was fighting for in Ivory Coast and up to this moment I do not know.

  • At some point you said Sam Bockarie and his men and all those that he was with decided to cross the border from the Ivory Coast back into Liberia, correct?

  • Yes.

  • How long had you been with him in the Ivory Coast before he decided to cross back into Liberia?

  • Well, the day I saw him when he came from Kolonko and went to Danané, I moved from Man and went to Danané and it was within three days - I mean, within a week that the infighting started in Danané.

  • Well, let me rephrase the question. From the day you arrived in the Ivory Coast, whether you were in Man or Danané or wherever, from the day of your arrival in the Ivory Coast in 2002 how long were you there before you and Sam Bockarie started leaving to go back into Liberia?

  • Well, I was there for three months. Three months. Within three to four months. I spent three months there even before I saw him.

  • Did Sam Bockarie and all the people he was with cross the border from the Ivory Coast into Liberia?

  • Well, not all of them were able to cross over. Some were killed and some were captured. But those who were able to cross, they crossed over to Liberian soil.

  • And the part of Liberia they crossed into was Nimba County, correct?

  • The main city in Nimba County is Sanniquellie, correct?

  • Well, I don't know.

  • Actually have you heard of a town in Nimba County called Sanniquellie, Madam Witness?

  • Well, yes, I have heard that name before.

  • Where exactly in Nimba County did you and Sam Bockarie and the others end up in when you crossed from the Cote d'Ivoire?

  • Well, I do not know the names and I did not go to any big town together with them. Immediately we crossed the border, the first village we got to like I had said was an - almost an empty town. It had an under five clinic where children were treated, and it was a village immediately after the border and it was at that village where we were that Jungle came and collected him.

  • You know where Ganta is in Nimba County, right?

  • No, I never went there before. I never knew there. I only heard the name.

  • Do you know where Yekepa is in Nimba County?

  • Well I heard the name, but I don't know there. To say the way somebody will know a particular place and to say this is the name, I did not go there. I do not know there. I heard some of those names, but I did not go to the place. I can only know them by name.

  • Madam Witness, in any event, when Sam Bockarie and his men crossed over into Liberia you said that you were met, this group of people, by senior Liberian government officials near the border area, yes?

  • In the small village where we were, the small village with the school compound with the school building. That was the village. That was where we were - we were assembled and that was where we were when the senior Liberian officers came and met us in that school building.

  • You seem to be focused on where you were and the building. My question is focused on whether certain officials came and met you wherever you were near the border. The answer is yes, correct?

  • Well, I cannot just answer yes. I will have to defend what I want to say. Troops came to the border area and they were armed men, they were armed forces, and they said we shouldn't cross the border to enter into Liberia, but for the senior Liberian officers it was at the school building that they met us and that was the moment I saw them.

  • This border village, some of the senior officials from the Liberian government you referred to were 50, or Benjamin Yeaten, Joe Tuah and you said they were accompanied by their bodyguards, correct?

  • At the school building. After we had crossed the border at the school compound.

  • And you said they took Sam Bockarie, correct?

  • Well that was what I heard when one amongst Benjamin Yeaten's bodyguard, who had the one barrel BZT in the van, that was at the small village at the school compound. They told me that they were waiting for Benjamin Yeaten since they said they and Sam Bockarie had moved and gone to a village ahead and he said they are having a meeting there. I did not see Sam Bockarie with my own eyes, but that was what he told me.

  • I'm not asking you if you saw him. I'm asking you if you saw him being taken away. Did you see anybody with Benjamin Yeaten taking Sam Bockarie away when you say he was taken away?

  • Well, I did not see with my own eyes. It was High Command, Benjamin Yeaten's bodyguard, who had the one barrel BZT mounted in the vehicle. He was the one who told me at the junction and he said that they have just passed by. I overheard the sound of the vehicle while they were passing, but I did not see the vehicle myself because you would have to move from the school compound going towards the small village and at the junction there you will see the route to the other side.

  • We recall your reference to High Command and this BZT mounted on a vehicle. You told us you encountered High Command at a particular junction after Sam Bockarie had already been taken, correct?

  • Well, it was High Command who told me when he was standing by the vehicle that it was Sam Bockarie and Benjamin Yeaten and others who had passed by to go and have a meeting. I did not see. I am still saying that. I did not see Sam Bockarie with my own eyes, nor did I see Benjamin Yeaten with my own eyes, but I saw his bodyguards who had the one barrel BZT mounted on the vehicle who said to me that they were waiting for them.

  • But that is the point. All that you've told us about Sam Bockarie being taken away you learned from - at least one of the sources was High Command, yes?

  • Yes, he was the first person who told me.

  • Another person you heard from was - that somebody you heard about what happened to Sam Bockarie from was Toasty, yes?

  • It was next from Papay Moriba before I heard it from Toasty.

  • I appreciate the sequence and I know about it, but we are trying to find out the sources of your information and it would be fair to say that there were three of them generally, Sam Bockarie, Papay Moriba and Toasty, yes?

  • No, High Command, Papay Moriba and Toasty.

  • Yes, I misspoke. Thank you, Madam Witness. Those three, High Command, Papay Moriba and Toasty, those are the sources of your information for what happened to Sam Bockarie around the time of this episode near the border where it is said he was taken by Benjamin Yeaten, yes?

  • Well, those were the people. At first it was High Command who told me that they had gone for a meeting, but about his death it was Papay Moriba who was the first person that told me.

  • I see the distinction and it's an important point. Of the three people we've spoken about, High Command, Papay Moriba and Toasty, only two of those, first Papay Moriba and Toasty, told you about how he died, yes?

  • Now, a few minutes ago you said that some of the men Sam Bockarie entered the Cote d'Ivoire with were killed and did not return with him into Liberia. What was the total number of fighting men that were with Sam Bockarie in the Ivory Coast?

  • Well they were many, because there were some Liberian soldiers who moved from Liberia and joined Sam Bockarie in Liberia - I mean in the Ivory Coast, so I can say the fighters were around 300, including the Liberian fighters. Also, the fighters themselves had their wives. Some had wives in Sierra Leone even before they went with Sam Bockarie to Liberia and then after they had arrived there they called on their wives to meet them there, and some of the fighters who even went to the Ivory Coast also got Ivorian wives there added to what they already had. So Sam Bockarie's fighters had wives.

  • Madam Witness, please listen to my question carefully and I know you are doing so. It's a very simple question. We recall you telling us about soldiers bringing back wives from the Ivory Coast. That's not what I'm asking you about. I want to know how many fighting people were with Sam Bockarie in the Ivory Coast. I am not asking about their wives. I'm not asking about wives they took with them, or wives they brought back with them. How many were fighting people with him in the Ivory Coast?

  • I can say they were around 300, all the fighters put together.

  • Of the 300, how many were killed before he crossed over into Liberia?

  • Well, I do not recall all of them. I recall that they killed one of them and the one that was killed it was the wife that let me know. I think it was Ishmael even before we crossed.

  • Are you telling the Court - when you said a few minutes ago that some of the fighters with Bockarie were killed in Ivory Coast, are you telling the Court that it was only one person that you know of that was killed in the Ivory Coast? One out of 300?

  • Well, I was not very specific when I spoke that they were just fighters that were killed. I said the group. The group that Sam Bockarie had with him in Ivory Coast, they killed some even before we crossed into Liberia. I was not specific that they were all fighters.

  • Then I ask you a simple question. Of the fighters - and you said they were about 300 - that were with Sam Bockarie in the Ivory Coast, how many were killed before he crossed back into Liberia?

  • Well, that is the only one that I recall and he was Sam Bockarie's bodyguard. That is the one that I recall amongst the fighters.

  • Are you telling this Court that after a conflict with the Ivorian government forces, Sam Bockarie's group of fighters sustained only one casualty? Only one of them died? Is that your evidence, Madam Witness?

  • Well, that is the one that I recall that I can tell the Court about. He was Sam Bockarie's bodyguard.

  • Did the remaining of the fighters cross into Liberia with Sam Bockarie?

  • Yes.

  • Now going back to when you saw High Command and High Command told you that they had taken Sam Bockarie, where was his family at this time - I mean Sam Bockarie's family?

  • Well they were all in that village, the small village where Sam Bockarie was at the rubber plantation.

  • And correct me if I'm wrong, but you told us that Sam Bockarie's family - indeed, his wife - was in the company of Benjamin Yeaten's wife; that is Yeaten's wife was taking care of Bockarie's wife and his family. Correct me if I'm wrong, you said that, right?

  • No, no, Yeaten's wife was not taking care of Bockarie's family. What I am trying to tell the Court is that it was Yeaten's wife that went to Bockarie's house, that is the Four Houses in Buedu, collected Bockarie's wife, children and his family and took them to Nimba.

  • You were in Nimba County when you encountered High Command, yes?

  • And you're telling us that the manner in which Sam Bockarie's family got to Nimba County was with the help of Benjamin Yeaten's wife, yes?

  • She was the one who took them from their house and took them to Nimba.

  • Yes, she brought them to Nimba County. Yeaten's wife brought Sam Bockarie's wife and his family to Nimba County where you and the others were, yes?

  • Not where I and the others were. It was another village. It was a different area in Nimba County. That was in the same county, but not the same village and not the same town.

  • All the same, Nimba County. Sam Bockarie was in a village that you say was near or in a plantation, yes?

  • Yes, a rubber plantation. That was where the village was.

  • That was the village where Sam Bockarie was at, correct?

  • Did either Papay Moriba or Toasty tell you the place where Sam Bockarie was killed?

  • Did either Papay Moriba or Toasty tell you how Sam Bockarie was killed? I'm not asking you why he was killed. I'm asking you did they describe for you the manner in which he was killed?

  • Well, they did not explain to me. They did not describe to me the manner in which he was killed.

  • Mr Anyah, I note the time. Is this a convenient point to take the lunchtime adjournment?

  • Yes, Madam President.

  • Very good. Madam Witness, we are now going to take the usual lunchtime adjournment. We will be resuming court at 2.30. Please adjourn court until 2.30.

  • [Lunch break taken at 1.30 p.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 2.30 p.m.]

  • Mr Anyah, I notice a change of appearance.

  • Yes, good afternoon, Madam President. Good afternoon, your Honours, counsel opposite. For the Defence this afternoon it is myself Morris Anyah and Mr Piers Von Berg. Thank you.

  • Thank you. Please proceed on with your questions, Mr Anyah.