The transcripts of the trial of Charles Taylor, former President of Liberia. More…

  • Mr Bangura, please proceed.

  • Thank you, your Honour.

  • Good morning, Madam Witness.

  • Good morning, sir.

  • We shall continue with your testimony this morning. I am going to go back to some matters that we dealt with on Friday and seek some clarifications from you, okay?

  • Thank you. Now in your testimony on Friday you talked about being taught about the logbook. Do you recall that?

  • Now what is the logbook?

  • Well, the logbook was a special book that we used for only official inputting. Not all messages or communications were put into the logbook.

  • Where was the logbook kept?

  • We kept the logbook in the radio bag where we used to put the communication radio. In that same bag was where we kept the logbook.

  • And where was the bag kept?

  • Just a moment. Mr Anyah?

  • I hesitate to interrupt, but I would be grateful for some foundation in the sense that the witness's evidence from Friday conveys the fact that she has served as a radio operator in different places at different times and where the location of this logbook is is not particularly clear at least to us.

  • Yes, Mr Bangura, there is some merit in that because it could be one or many logbooks and whether it was one master copy at one location or various locations - if we can clarify, plus her knowledge of course of how it was done.

  • Your Honour, I am referring to the witness's testimony on Friday and the transcript reference is page 15596 at line 20. Your Honours will recall that this wasn't part of the private session testimony, but the witness did talk about training she received and as part of that training she was taught about the logbook and this is a follow up on that. I am not - unless I am missing something, but this is a follow up on what sort of - what the logbook was about. I see my learned friend on his feet.

  • Mr Anyah, yes?

  • I appreciate the reference by Mr Bangura to the transcript. That is helpful. It indicates that when she spoke of the logbook she spoke of it in the context of Zogoda. The basis for my interference is the fact that besides Zogoda there are other places and she referred to the logbook as being part of her training at Zogoda and I think counsel's question is more general than Zogoda. Counsel asked the question on page 3 at line 3, "Where was the logbook kept?"

  • Actually, Mr Anyah, without interrupting you, I have already indicated that there has to be foundation if it is one or many logbooks, whether it was a master logbook in one location or various locations and how she knew these things.

  • Thank you, Madam President.

  • So I have given that direction now, Mr Bangura.

  • Madam Witness, where did you get the training about the logbook?

  • It was in Zogoda by Foday Sankoh.

  • The witness has - certain information came out on Friday in private session and the reason why I did not want to go that deeply into laying the sort of foundation that is being required here is because I was not wanting to elicit that information in open and we see the witness now going into that area and clearly bringing out evidence that came out in --

  • But surely, Mr Bangura, the witness's evidence also is that she was one of at least I think she said 12, so I am not sure if you are making an application or you are making an observation.

  • I am making an application, your Honour, that the name which has come out from the witness's last answer relating to training is information which came out before in private session and that be redacted, your Honour.

  • May I be heard in respect of his application?

  • Yes, I was going to invite your reply.

  • We object to that application on several grounds. This is not the first witness to provide that type of evidence before this chamber. TF1-584 mentioned the same name and mentioned that over a hundred of them were sent to Zogoda for an exam they sat in this particular context. TF1 - I believe - 516 also was at Zogoda and was in Zogoda in the company of several others.

  • [Trial Chamber conferred]

  • We have considered the application. In the light of the numbers of people that were with the person named and at the place we do not see any merit in the application and it is refused. Continue, Mr Bangura.

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned that you were taught about the logbook in Zogoda. Now my question to you was what was this logbook that you were taught about? What was the logbook?

  • Well, the logbook was a special book in which we were to input all RUF messages from the radio set and this logbook, there were special messages that were to be put in the logbook. Not every message radio operators were to put into the logbook.

  • And what sort of messages were you taught to input into the logbook?

  • Messages like if RUF had undertaken a mission and they had suffered casualty - a lot of casualties, that would be put in the logbook. But if they killed a lot of civilians or burnt houses, they did a lot of wicked things to civilians or if RUF fighters raped people, all of those were not to be put into the logbook.

  • Madam Witness, you said that certain kind of information was not put into the logbook and you mentioned cases of rape, cases of burning of houses by the RUF. Why were these informations not put into the logbook?

  • That was the policy. It was part of the training that Foday Sankoh gave to us in Zogoda that that should not be included in the logbook.

  • Do you know whether a logbook was kept at Zogoda?

  • Yes, any radio station had a logbook.

  • Thank you. Madam Witness, in your testimony on Friday you mentioned a particular message that was sent from --

  • Mr Bangura, sorry to interrupt. Mr Interpreter, did the witness say any radio station or every radio station?

  • Your Honours, can the witness repeat it.

  • Madam Witness, I asked you about whether there was a logbook at Zogoda and you - your answer was yes and you talked about other radio stations. Can you repeat that answer, please?

  • I said each radio station had a logbook, not just Zogoda.

  • Now on Friday you talked about 448 messages. You said 448 was a coded message that came from RIA. Do you recall that?

  • And you said it came from an operator at RIA. Do you recall that?

  • Now where was RIA to your knowledge?

  • Well, as far as I know, it is Roberts International Airport in Liberia.

  • And do you know on whose behalf the operator was - the operator you mentioned, who was the operator again? Can you recall?

  • And do you know for what group Sky 1 was working at the Roberts International Airport?

  • What I know is that he was one of Charles Taylor's fighters.

  • And are you able to tell the Court how he was able to communicate with radios within RUF territory?

  • There are times he will just come to the national which was 70110. He will just come up and say, "448 has just left my location heading for you location". Then the station would go off.

  • Madam Witness, when you say he would come to the national, 70110, what do you mean?

  • That was the control frequency.

  • The control frequency for who, or which group?

  • For RUF station. That was the central control frequency for the RUF station.

  • Was it only to the control frequency 70110 that he would communicate, Sky 1?

  • I said 70110, yes.

  • Yes, the question is was it only to the control station, the 70110? Was it only to that station that Sky 1 would communicate 448 messages?

  • Well, that was the station we received the message from.

  • Madam Witness, I think counsel is asking did you get it from one station only, or from others? Is that the purport, Mr Bangura?

  • Thank you, your Honour.

  • Okay, it was not just one station. We got it from Foxtrot Yankee, that was Foya airfield, and we got it from Base 1 which was Benjamin Yeaten's radio station which was based in Monrovia in Benjamin Yeaten's compound. We also got it from Vahun, which was Victor 1.

  • Thank you, Madam Witness. I believe you understood my question the other way round, but I will live with the answer that you have given. My question really was whether Sky 1 communicated these 448 messages to other stations apart from the control station 70110. Do you understand that?

  • I believe the witness said that 70110 was a control frequency as opposed to a control station.

  • That was the answer, yes, that it was a control frequency.

  • That was the national station for all the RUF stations, the 70110.

  • Madam Witness, 70110, we have frequency and we have station, what was it? Was it a station or was it a frequency, can we be clear?

  • Well, it was not a station. It was a frequency, a selected frequency.

  • You mentioned Foxtrot Yankee as one of the stations from which 448 messages came. Where was Foxtrot Yankee based?

  • It was based at Foya airfield in Liberia.

  • Do you know who used this call sign, Foxtrot Yankee?

  • Well, there were radio operators there whose names I don't recall now.

  • And do you know who controlled the radio at Foya that used this call sign?

  • Well, the radio station was under the control of Charles Taylor's soldiers.

  • And can you recall when these messages came from Foxtrot Yankee?

  • Well, I recall that at any time they saw the ECOMOG jet fly over their area, or heading towards our own area, they will also come over the net and tell us that, "448 has just passed our location" and that, "448 is heading for your location". Then the station will go off.

  • Over what period? What period are we talking of here that these messages came from Foxtrot Yankee?

  • Well, from early '98 throughout.

  • And when you say early '98 can you recall a month in '98?

  • Well, I cannot recall the month now because it has been a long time ago. I don't recall.

  • Mr Bangura, if you could remember to switch off your microphone every now and then.

  • When you say "throughout", what do you mean? Throughout what period?

  • Up to 1999 when we left for Monrovia.

  • What about the case of the messages from Sky 1 at RIA? Over what period did you get those messages?

  • Well, it was from 1998 at the time the ECOMOG jet was bombarding the RUF controlled zones.

  • Up until what time?

  • Up to 1999, mid-1999, even before we left to go to Monrovia.

  • Madam Witness, you also mentioned Base 1 as a radio that communicated 448 messages, do you recall?

  • And you mentioned Lima Bravo, do you recall as well?

  • Now where were those two radios located?

  • Well, those two call signs were just one radio station located in Benjamin Yeaten's compound in Monrovia.

  • Do you recall who the operators were on this radio?

  • Yes, I still recall Sunlight and Dew.

  • Madam Witness, in your evidence also on Friday you talked about mining that was going on in Kono. Do you recall that?

  • Now are you able to tell the Court what period mining was taking place in Kono, over what period?

  • Well, I recall that it was - the one that was actually serious it was from 1998, early '98.

  • Madam Witness, your evidence on Friday was that you were in Kenema when you learnt about mining going on in Kono. Do you recall?

  • Yes, that was why I said that serious mining was actually in 1998. In '97 mining went on there, but it was not as serious as the one that started in 1998 at the time we were finally in Buedu.

  • How did you know that mining was going on in Kono during the period 1997?

  • Well, Issa Sesay was in charge of Kono at that time. He used to bring the diamonds to Kenema to Mosquito, Sam Bockarie, because at that time he was in Kenema, he was based in Kenema. So when they got diamonds from Kono, Issa Sesay would bring the diamonds and hand them over to Sam Bockarie in Kenema and at that time Sam Bockarie was based at NIC, so it was through that that I was able to know.

  • Now when you say you were able to know, exactly how were you able to know?

  • Yes, Madam Witness? Do you want to say something?

  • Yes, if I explain anything I want to explain into details, but should I explain anything from that point now it will disturb me a little.

  • I am not quite sure what you mean by "disturb me a little". What exactly do you mean?

  • If I may just find out:

  • Madam Witness, if the explanation you are about to give is something that you are concerned would compromise your security then I shall ask that question at a later point and probably ask the Court to go into private session.

  • Okay, okay, okay.

  • Mr Anyah?

  • With all due respect, your Honours, I don't think it is appropriate for the witness to dictate at what point in the evidence the Chamber will hear what she has to say. The witness cannot direct the mode of examination. What if this were to repeat itself under cross-examination and she says she has some information she does not wish to reveal because it would compromise her security? Must I then be forced to go into closed or private session? I think it is up to the Chamber to direct the witness as to what questions she may or may not answer, with all due respect, your Honours.

  • Well, the Chamber has on occasions more than once made such a direction and if appropriate it will make such a direction, but at the moment --

  • I am a little at a loss as to what is going on here, because I presume that Mr Bangura would not ask a question without knowing the answer and if he has chosen to ask that question in open session then it means that the answer he is expecting would not reveal the witness's identity.

  • Your Honours, I totally agree with your Honour, but the position is that you get answers beyond what is expected and if the witness is indicating that what she is about to say might compromise her security, your Honours, I think it would be proper that the question can then be asked in a private session as I have indicated. It's clear that the answers that I seek are answers that I should reasonably have known or should expect, but, your Honours, a witness can sometimes go beyond what is to be reasonably expected.

  • The witness is your witness, Mr Bangura. As you know, it is up to you to control your witness.

  • Thank you, your Honour.

  • And if appropriate that the evidence be adduced at this point then it should be adduced and if you feel it appropriate to give a warning then give a warning.

  • I have indicated so, your Honour:

  • Madam Witness, you also talked about mining in Tongo, do you recall?

  • At one point it is your evidence that mining was being done for senior people of the RUF and the AFRC, do you recall?

  • Who was doing the mining in Tongo to your recollection?

  • Well, the mining was under the command of the AFRC and RUF who commanded the civilians to mine for diamonds for them.

  • How did you know that the commanders commanded civilians to mine diamonds for them in Tongo?

  • I also went there at a point in time. I was there for about three days with them and throughout the three days I was there they were mining for diamonds for the commanders and any commander who went there at that particular time, they will explain to you that they are supposed to do the Pa's job.

  • Madam Witness, you have said they were mining for diamonds for the commanders. Who were "they" that were mining for diamonds for the commanders?

  • Well, the AFRC and the RUF soldiers.

  • The question was how did you know that these soldiers or the commanders were using civilians to mine diamonds for their senior officers?

  • Well, I have already said that I went there myself. I saw with my own naked eyes. I went there, I saw it and I was able to prove that.

  • Over what period did the mining go on in Tongo to your recollection?

  • From 1997 they started.

  • At what time did you yourself go to Tongo as you have described?

  • Well, that was the time. I went there in company of Sam Bockarie and others. It was a convoy. I joined their group. We went there.

  • Madam Witness, when you say that was the time, that is not quite clear. Was it in; 97? Was it later than '97? Exactly when did you go there?

  • Well, it was in '97 even before we pulled out of Kenema.

  • How early or late was it in 1997?

  • Well, I can say it was mid '97.

  • Who did you go to Tongo with, apart from Sam Bockarie?

  • Well, we went there together with Jungle and others.

  • When you say "and others", can you try and recall some of the others?

  • Well, at that time we went there with Shabado, Jungle, Sampson and so many other people, but I cannot recall all of their names now.

  • Madam Witness, you talked about a Liberian operator who was in Kenema at the time you were there, do you recall?

  • The name of that operator you said was Sellay. Is that correct?

  • Yes, we used to call him CO Sellay.

  • In your evidence on Friday you talked about the communications which Sellay had with Liberia and you said that those communications were restricted. Do you recall that?

  • To whom were the communications restricted?

  • Well, it was from other fighters, the other RUF fighters, and even amongst us the radio operators who were there.

  • Now who had access to those communications and who had not? It is not quite clear from your answer. Who had access to communications with Sellay in Liberia? Let's start with who had access.

  • Well, Sam Bockarie was number one person who had access to such communication.

  • Well, Jungle and Sellay and Issa Sesay.

  • Did any of the operators - Bockarie's operators - have access to such communications?

  • Well, they only used to receive calls. When they came on they would call, when Benjamin Yeaten's operators came on, Sunlight, they will call and then sometimes Ebony would receive the call or Tourist will receive the call. That was when they would want to enquire about Sellay or Sam Bockarie. Those were the only communications that they monitored or that they received.

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned the name Sampson as one of the persons that came to Kenema with Jungle from Liberia, do you recall that?

  • What nationality was he?

  • Just pause, Madam Witness, please.

  • Madam President, I would be grateful for a page indication of this particular reference from Friday's transcript.

  • Can you assist us, Mr Bangura, please?

  • Yes. Your Honours, page 15606. It begins from line 26 and goes through to the next page.

  • I do have it and the reason for asking was the additional names that appear in the transcript and to be specific about which trip was being referred to.

  • I am not quite sure if you are making an observation or raising an objection here, Mr Anyah. Are you saying that the question is in some way defective?

  • The question asked about a trip on which Sampson was accompanied by Jungle, but the witness testified of another name on Friday, somebody called Junior, and that is also reflected in the transcript and I just wondered if counsel was referring to the same trip that three names were mentioned, Sampson, Junior and Jungle, or to the another trip involving only Sampson and Jungle and that's why I went to the transcript, Madam President.

  • Yes, I notice in my notes from Friday, Mr Bangura, there is a trip and then there is a return trip involving Sampson. So perhaps if you specify the trip or trips that you are seeking clarification.

  • I want to go back to the question that I asked.

  • Your question is at page 18, line 2, and you were asking about his nationality which is really nothing to do with trips, so I think possibly I have been over specific as well.

  • I will get the witness to be more focused on the --

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned the name Sampson on Friday as somebody who travelled from Liberia, do you recall that, to Kenema?

  • Yes, three of them were always in company, Sampson, Junior and Jungle. The three of them were always in company.

  • The question was do you know what nationality he was, Sampson?

  • Yes, he was a Liberian soldier.

  • How did you know that he was a Liberian soldier?

  • They used to come in uniforms and they used to speak Liberian English. They used to come in something like an overall, dark coloured, written on the back triple S and they only used to speak Liberian English.

  • Now, Madam Witness, just to be clear, when you say triple S, what do you mean?

  • Special Security Service in Liberia.

  • You have already mentioned that along with Jungle there also was somebody else called Junior who came. Do you recall what nationality Junior was?

  • I said they were all Liberians.

  • In your evidence on Friday you talked about a trip that Jungle, Sampson and Junior made from Liberia to Kenema and you said that they then went to Kono and on to Freetown. Do you recall that?

  • Yes, I still recall that.

  • Now do you recall when they made this trip to Kono and down to Freetown?

  • Well, it was at the time Johnny Paul was in power in Freetown.

  • And how did you know that they went to Kono and then to Freetown?

  • Like I said on that day, we did not use the main road to go to Freetown because the Bo route was blocked, Mile 91, Malamah Junction, all those were occupied by Kamajors. So the only route we had to go to Freetown at that time was to go through Kono and from Kono they would proceed to Freetown.

  • Now how did you know this? Did you yourself travel with them to Kono and down to Freetown?

  • No, Issa Sesay used to come from Freetown to Kono and then to Kenema and then the time Jungle and others came, he, Sam Bockarie, said that he and Jungle and others were going to Kono to meet Issa there and they would be joined by Issa and then they would travel to Freetown to meet Johnny Paul Koroma. That was before they left.

  • Madam Witness, in your testimony you have talked about 70110 as the control frequency for the RUF. Do you recall?

  • Yes, that was the national frequency.

  • And you also have talked about a control station for the RUF. Do you recall?

  • Now where was the control station for the RUF based?

  • Well, at the time Foday Sankoh and others came to Freetown the control station by then was based in Freetown and it was called Vision 1, but after Foday Sankoh had been arrested the control station was in Buedu under Sam Bockarie's command and it was called Planet 1 at that time.

  • Madam Witness, when you talk about when Foday Sankoh was in Freetown what period are you talking about?

  • Well, that was the time he returned from Togo to Freetown. At that time I don't know whether it was some time around 1997. I recall it was early '97. By then we had a radio station there that they called Vision 1 and that was the control station by then.

  • Where is the control station for the RUF usually based? Normally where is it based?

  • Well, it was based in Buedu under Sam Bockarie's command and that was even before Foday Sankoh returned. The control station was initially based in Buedu under Sam Bockarie's command.

  • When you talk about even before Foday Sankoh returned, are you talking of a time before Johnny Paul's government came to power, or was it after that?

  • Well, it was after that.

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned the name of call sign Mike November and we have it on the records. For purposes of this question, your Honours, I refer to the page reference in the transcript just for purposes of correction at page 15597, line 8 and at page 15599, line 21. We have at two different times the name coming up as Mike November 1 and there is Mike November 5. Can you clarify which one?

  • Well, that area has to be corrected. It was not Mike November 1. It was Mike November 5.

  • Thank you. Madam Witness, in your evidence on Friday you talked about instructions which had been received by Sam Bockarie regarding Johnny Paul Koroma being brought to Buedu. Do you recall that?

  • Yes.

  • And you went on to say that Sam Bockarie instructed Superman to bring Johnny Paul Koroma to Buedu. Do you recall that?

  • How did Sam Bockarie instruct Superman to bring Johnny Paul to Buedu?

  • Well, it was through the radio communication.

  • And how did you know this?

  • Well, I monitored it in the radio room.

  • When you say you monitored it, can you explain exactly what you did?

  • Well, I was in the radio room when he entered there and communicated with Superman regarding that.

  • Do you know where Superman was at this time?

  • Well, he was around the Kono axis.

  • Your evidence on Friday is that the instruction which Sam Bockarie had from Benjamin Yeaten was that they should bring Johnny Paul Koroma to Buedu because Johnny Paul had something for them. Do you recall that, that these were instructions that had been given to Sam Bockarie by Benjamin Yeaten? Do you recall that?

  • Yes.

  • And that this was what Charles Taylor had ordered Benjamin Yeaten to pass on to Sam Bockarie. Do you recall that?

  • Now when you said that Johnny Paul had something for them in this order, what do you mean by "something"?

  • Well, at that time I did not know anything.

  • Please pause, Madam Witness.

  • I recall the evidence from Friday as being that the information Benjamin Yeaten allegedly conveyed to Sam Bockarie originated from a conversation between Foday Sankoh and Charles Taylor. The manner in which the question is posed today is that Charles Taylor ordered Benjamin Yeaten to direct Sam Bockarie to direct Superman, or to direct Sam Bockarie to get Johnny Paul to Buedu. The name Foday Sankoh is not included in this question today. Although the inference could be drawn that it was from Charles Taylor, the context in which it came through on Friday was that Yeaten got some information from a conversation Foday Sankoh had with Charles Taylor and acted upon that information.

  • Can you are refer us to the transcript, please, Mr Anyah?

  • If I may have a moment, Madam President. Your Honours, on page 15611, if you start at line 6 there was a question posed to the witness and this was in open session:

    "Q. And what did he say that 50 told him, just one step

    up?

    A. Sam Bockarie said that he had spoken to 50 and that 50

    instructed him that he should try to bring Johnny Paul to

    Buedu.

    Q. Can you pause just so that we are able to take in what

    you have given us.

    A. Okay.

    Q. Then he had spoken to Johnny. Who did 50 say he got

    this instruction from?

    A. 50 said he got the instruction from his dad, Charles

    Taylor, and that Charles Taylor said he and Foday Sankoh

    had discussed that 50 should instruct Sam Bockarie so that

    Sam Bockarie will help bring Johnny Paul to Buedu."

    Friday you have in this context that Charles Taylor said that he and Foday Sankoh had discussed that, meaning how 50 should instruct Sam Bockarie so that Sam Bockarie will bring Johnny Paul to Buedu. I mean it is inferable that, yes, Charles Taylor was the one who gave the directive, but the manner in which it comes out on Friday is that the directive came from both Foday Sankoh and Charles Taylor.

  • There is a certain ambiguity as to who actually physically gave the instruction, but the answer does show that there was some discussion. The word "discussed" is recorded between Mr Taylor and Foday Sankoh. So let's have a look at the question as put by Mr Bangura.

    In actual fact, Mr Anyah, the question concerning Mr Taylor and Benjamin Yeaten has already been answered and the present question that has been put when you raised your objection is to clarify the something that Johnny Paul had. So it looks like your objection is a little bit late, but I do note that, as you correctly say, the transcript showed that it resulted from discussion. Put the question, Mr Bangura.

  • Madam Witness, the question again was about the instructions which were given to Sam Bockarie for Johnny Paul Koroma and you said that those instructions were that Johnny Paul Koroma should be brought to Buedu because he had something for them, "them" meaning the persons from whom those instructions had come?

  • That's not entirely clear. I don't think that is - you are interpreting an answer, Mr Bangura.

  • I will limit it to the specific words of the instructions:

  • The instructions were that they should bring something for them, do you recall that?

  • Now when they said - where the instruction says that Johnny Paul should bring something for them, what did that "something for them" mean as far as you recall?

  • Well, it means diamonds.

  • How did you know that "something for them" meant diamonds?

  • Well, I knew that after Issa Sesay had raided Johnny Paul in Buedu and he collected so many diamonds from him and during that period Issa told Sam Bockarie that, you see, the Pa had arrived and had not wanted to hand over the diamonds, so if we had not razed him he wouldn't have handed over the diamonds to us.

  • Where were you when Issa Sesay was saying these words to Sam Bockarie?

  • Well, I was in there. They sent me to look out for something for them. I was in their room. The both of them were in the room, Sam Bockarie and Mosquito. I mean Sam Bockarie and Issa Sesay.

  • Where was this room?

  • In Sam Bockarie's bedroom.

  • Mr Bangura, what does the witness mean, "If we had not razed him he wouldn't have handed over the diamonds"? I am looking at page 27, line 3.

  • I will get to that, your Honour:

  • Madam Witness, you said that Issa Sesay was saying to Sam Bockarie that if they had not - if we had not razed him we could not have got diamonds. I am not reading in exact words, but what do you mean? What did Issa mean when he talked about "razed him"?

  • Raid. If they had not raided him. If they had not raided him they wouldn't have been able to get the things from him.

  • When you talk about a raid, what do you mean? Did anything happen in Buedu?

  • Yes, after Johnny Paul had arrived in Buedu Sam Bockarie lodged him in his own bedroom. They quit the bedroom - they quitted the bedroom and they lodged Johnny Paul in there, he and his wife, and they were there for over two weeks up to - in fact up to three weeks. And they were there for some times when Issa Sesay arrived from Kono to Buedu. So one particular morning we were sitting and we heard gunshots into the air and that took place over 30 minutes so all of us ran into the bush. So Issa Sesay after some times when we returned to town a few hours we did not meet Johnny Paul and his wife in the place and there were a series of bullet holes into the house at that particular time.

    So for all day we did not see them, but late in the evening he brought Makuta in a vehicle, but we did not see Johnny Paul at that particular moment. It was later that we saw Johnny Paul. And they said they had taken him to Kangama and Johnny Paul was now in Kangama and the following day they took Makuta to him, that is his wife. So it was during the shootout that they collected everything from Johnny Paul, all the things that he had brought from Freetown, and it was during that process that they collected all the diamonds him, the foreign currencies and so many other things from Johnny Paul.

    So it was as a result of that, that particular night, that Issa Sesay and Sam Bockarie entered Sam Bockarie's bedroom and he was showing the things, the diamonds, to Sam Bockarie. And he said if they had not raided Johnny Paul he wouldn't have handed over all the diamonds to them. He had wanted to escape with them to Monrovia.

  • Madam Witness, do you know, apart from Issa Sesay, was anybody else involved in the raid that you have just described?

  • Well, the thing was like an arrangement between Issa Sesay and Sam Bockarie, but Sam Bockarie did not do much about it. It was Issa Sesay who carried out the operation. He did not do much, because he did not really come up that much, because the people who did the raiding were his own bodyguards and Issa Sesay's bodyguards.

  • To you know where Sam Bockarie was during the raid?

  • Well, he left the place and went to an old school building. He was standing there.

  • How did you know this?

  • Well, it was his bodyguards who said it because Sam Bockarie's wife and I, we ran into the same bush and on our return he started asking for his husband - for her husband. She was asking, "Where is my husband?" Then one of his bodyguards explained to the wife that, "Master himself is at the old school building there". That was where he was standing throughout the operation when the operation was going on.

  • Madam Witness, in your testimony on Friday also you mentioned a trip that Sam Bockarie had made to Liberia. Do you recall?

  • Your evidence is that in fact he had - he made frequent trips to Liberia about that time, do you recall?

  • I would be grateful for a page reference, if it please your Honours.

  • Your Honours, it is page 15619, lines 27 to 28.

  • Thank you, Mr Bangura.

  • Thank you, counsel.

  • Madam Witness, on this particular trip you said that Sam Bockarie came back with arms and you mentioned AK-47s. Do you recall that? You said brand new ones.

  • Yes.

  • And you said that they had not even been used with AK rounds, do you recall?

  • What do you mean when you said that they had not even been used with AK rounds?

  • What I meant was that at that time they had not used them at all. That they were arms that had been used, no, they were brand new ones. They had not used them. They had not used them to fight at all. They were new.

  • And you said that this trip - at this time Sam Bockarie made many trips. Just to be clear, when did he make this trip to Liberia?

  • Well, it was in early 1998.

  • Are you able to tell whether this was before the intervention in which Johnny Paul Koroma's government was removed from power, or was it after the intervention?

  • Repeat that, please. I did not understand.

  • Was the trip before Johnny Paul Koroma was removed from power, or was it after he left power?

  • The trip to Liberia at the time he brought the arms?

  • Do you understand the question, Madam Witness?

  • It is not very clear to me.

  • Madam Witness, you recall that Johnny Paul Koroma was removed from power at a certain point. Do you recall that?

  • Now the trip which Sam Bockarie made to Liberia that he came back from with the new arms that you have mentioned and he came back with a uniform and a rank, do you recall whether this trip was before Sam Bockarie - before Johnny Paul Koroma was removed from power or was it after he was removed from power? Do you recall?

  • Well, it was before he was removed from power.

  • You said that there were many trips during this time. The many trips that you talk about, were they before this particular trip or were they trips that were made after this trip?

  • Well, it was after.

  • And where were you based when this trip was made when Sam Bockarie made this trip to Liberia?

  • Well, I was based in Buedu.

  • Just to be clear, Madam Witness, where were you at the time that Johnny Paul Koroma was removed from power? Where were you?

  • I was in Buedu.

  • Thank you. Madam Witness, what was the state of communication in Buedu after you had come from Kenema and were based there? What was the state of communication within the RUF?

  • Well, the communication went back and forth within the RUF and outside the RUF. That is to say we were in Buedu when Sam Bockarie's radio station, which was the control station, through which we monitored all the RUF controlled zones and as well as the monitoring of Liberian stations, because we normally received calls from Liberia into Buedu.

  • Madam Witness, you have said that you in addition to calls within RUF controlled zones you monitored calls from - you monitored Liberian stations and then you go on to say that because you received calls from Liberia. Let us be clear. Are we talking of two things here? Did you monitor as well as receive calls from Liberia?

  • Well, we usually received calls from Liberia - Liberian stations, not just one station, into the RUF stations.

  • Which stations did you receive calls from from Liberia?

  • Well, we received calls from Base 1. We received calls from Foxtrot Yankee. We received calls from Base 1 and even through the satellite phone. Communication went on through the satellite phone.

  • Now who were you receiving calls from from Base 1?

  • From Sunlight, or Dew, or sometimes from Jungle.

  • And these communications were directed to who?

  • Well, to Sam Bockarie.

  • How did you know that these were calls directed to Sam Bockarie?

  • The operators at Base 1 usually called directly our national station which is Planet 1, Sam Bockarie's station.

  • On whose behalf were these calls made from Base 1?

  • Well, it was from Benjamin Yeaten to Sam Bockarie.

  • Can you describe normally how the communications go when there was a call from Base 1 to Planet 1?

  • Well, their station would come on, which was Base 1, and they will just say, "Base 1 for Planet 1". And if the Planet 1 station was on it will say, "Planet 1 for Base 1 receiving" and we had selected frequencies and sometimes they will just say, "Let's get there" or sometimes they will say, "Let's proceed", because we knew a particular frequency that was a secret frequency between Sam Bockarie's operators and Base 1 operators.

    So whenever they came on and said, "Base 1 for Planet 1" if Planet 1 was on, Planet 1 will say, "Planet 1 receiving from Base 1". They will either say, "Let's get there" or, "Let's proceed" so whenever they said that --

  • Can I ask you to pace your answer. You are going a bit too fast. You've got to be interpreted and recorded as well. Continue, please.

  • Well, the Base 1 station would come on to the RUF national base and they would call Planet 1.

  • And then what would happen?

  • And if Planet 1 was on or monitoring they will just say, "Let's get there" or, "Let's proceed". Then they will go to the secrete frequency that both operators knew so they will discuss whatever they wanted to discuss.

  • Now was it usually only the operators who talked to each other, the operators from Base 1 and the operators from Planet 1 during communications? Was it only these two people that talked to each other?

  • No, sometimes when they said that they would ask for us to report to our father, that is Sam Bockarie, and if Sam Bockarie was around we will tell them that he is around and they will say that their father wanted to get on to our father and that meant that Benjamin Yeaten wanted to get in touch with Sam Bockarie so that they would go ahead and we will switch over to the secret frequency and they will start discussing. If there was anything very important that they wouldn't need to discuss on that particular net, Benjamin Yeaten would instruct Sam Bockarie to put on the 21.

  • When you say Benjamin Yeaten would instruct Bockarie to put on the 21, what do you mean by the 21?

  • Well, that was the code name for the satellite at that time.

  • The satellite what?

  • Satellite phone.

  • Who had a satellite phone?

  • Well, it was Sam Bockarie who had the satellite phone.

  • Do you know what sort of discussions went on between Sam Bockarie and Benjamin Yeaten?

  • Well, the information that went on was regarding Sam Bockarie's travel to Monrovia, or sometimes Jungle's trip to Buedu at that time.

  • When you say "Jungle's trip to Buedu", what do you mean?

  • Well, Jungle was the one who used to bring the arms and ammunition. He used to bring the supply to Buedu at that time.

  • When did Jungle bring supplies to Buedu?

  • Well, I do not recall all the times now, because he used to bring arms and ammunition, food, clothing, shoes, so many other things. He used to bring them frequently at any time that we were short of them or that we needed them.

  • Now you said that in the communications between Benjamin Yeaten and Sam Bockarie they would often talk about Jungle coming to Buedu. What exactly would they discuss about Jungle coming?

  • Well, at times when those two people met to discuss sometimes Benjamin Yeaten will tell Sam Bockarie that he will send Jungle in two days time. That meant that Jungle was going to bring arms and ammunition within the two days. And if there was anything more important than that that they will need to discuss, he will - he will not just say, "I am sending Jungle with arms and ammunition". He will just say, "In two days time you should be expecting Jungle" and if there was anything more important than that he would instruct him to switch on the satellite phone.

  • How did you know about the content of these communications, because they would be communicating either on a private, secret frequency if they were on the radio, or on the 21 they would be talking to each other privately? How did you know that this was one of the subjects they discussed, Judge's arrival in Buedu with arms and ammunition?

  • Yes, they did not discuss it in an open like that. It was not that open, but Sam Bockarie was a man who didn't keep secrets. As long as somebody was living with him where he was, whatever he did or he planned he would say it to that person or people. That was the man - that was the kind of man he was. He was brave.

  • So what did Sam Bockarie say that you heard?

  • After the conversation, when he switched on the 21 and discussed, he said - when he was eating together with Eddie Kanneh I heard him say that Jungle was to come in two days time. The chief, who was Benjamin Yeaten, had sent Jungle and he would arrive in two days time, or maybe at times he will say he would arrive today. At times after one or two days we will see Jungle arrive with arms and ammunition.

  • Madam Witness, it is not quite clear whether you are talking of one particular situation here or you are giving a general picture of what happened. You have said that when Eddie Kanneh and - when he was eating together with Eddie Kanneh you heard him say - are you talking of one particular situation?

  • That was how he did it always. I just wanted to make reference to a particular situation, but that was what he did all along. He did not keep secrets. Whenever something happened after he would have spoken on the satellite phone he will discuss it with one or two senior officers he would see in the open, not in a room.

  • Over what period did communications go on about Jungle coming with material from Liberia?

  • It was during '98 any time Jungle was to come or to go to Monrovia. Any time Jungle was to come to Buedu or any time he was to go to Monrovia such communications would go on.

  • Were there any such communications after 1998?

  • When after 1998 did such communications go on?

  • Well, even before the January 6th invasion such communication went on.

  • Mr Bangura, are we talking about the secret communications on 21 and on the satellite phone, or are we talking about the ordinary radio communications that the witness was privy to? When you say "such communications", what are you referring to?

  • I believe I must have been very vague there. I will try to be more focused, your Honour:

  • Madam Witness, you have talked about the communications between Bockarie and Yeaten usually on the 21 and that is where they would discuss Jungle coming. Now how frequently did communications go on between Sam Bockarie and Benjamin Yeaten on the 21 about Jungle's arrival in Buedu?

  • Well, whenever he needed something, arms and ammunition from Liberia, or whenever there was shortage or whenever he would want to travel to Liberia.

  • When you say whenever he wanted to travel to Liberia, who would travel to Liberia?

  • Whenever Sam Bockarie wanted to travel to Liberia.

  • Now talking about communications --

  • Mr Bangura, I need to be sure. Was this witness - is the evidence that this witness was not privy to the private conversations on the 21 between Yeaten and Bockarie? Was she or was she not privy to these conversations on the satellite phone and on the 21?

  • Madam Witness, were you yourself present at any time when these communications went on? First of all, let us take the radio communications from Base 1 where the operators would call first to Planet 1. Were you yourself present at any time when communications went on between the two stations?

  • Yes, there were times I would be in the radio room. There were times when I would not be there.

  • What about on occasions where the operators put - they put Benjamin Yeaten on the other side, that is from Base 1, and from Planet 1 Sam Bockarie is put on to communicate on a secret frequency. Have you been present at all during such communications between them?

  • There were times I was there and there were times I was not there.

  • Mr Bangura, being present is not the same as being privy. What I am interested in is whether she was privy to this conversation.

  • I am getting there, your Honour:

  • Yes, there were times I monitored it and there were times I knew it.

  • Madam Witness, do you recall how often you monitored communications between Sam Bockarie and Benjamin Yeaten when they were on a secret frequency?

  • Yes, there are times I was present and I heard them and there were times my colleague operators told me, because if it was time for operation or there was pressure on us or there was progress he would be frequent at the radio stations. In fact there were times when he himself operated the station. At that time he will not allow any operator to receive any call. He himself would be the operator for himself and during those times there were times he will not allow any female operator to receive or to be present or to be on the mic because he said that was time for operations.

  • As regards communications that went between Sam Bockarie and Benjamin Yeaten on the 21, how did you learn about such communications?

  • Well, those communications would be done in a distant place in open terrain. The place was an open place. There was - normally that was where he installed the satellite phone, in an open place, and his bodyguards would be around him and they would discuss. After discussion he will come back and discuss it with either Issa Sesay, if Issa Sesay was present or around, or Eddie Kanneh. It was through those conversations that I would know whatever they had discussed on the satellite phone.

  • Were you present when he would explain or tell Issa Sesay or Eddie Kanneh about his communications on the satellite phone?

  • Yes, there are times I would be present.

  • Madam Witness, you talked about trips by Jungle from Liberia with supplies, talking about arms and ammunition and some other items. Normally what would bring about Jungle travelling from Liberia with supplies to Buedu? Normally what would bring about him travelling?

  • Well, the operators in Buedu would receive calls from Benjamin Yeaten's radio station, so they would inform the operators to report on Planet 1 which was Sam Bockarie's. If Sam Bockarie then was present, was around, then he and Benjamin Yeaten will speak over the satellite phone. If there was any other important thing they wanted to discuss about he will instruct him to switch the satellite phone on and during that he will tell Sam Bockarie the day that Jungle was to move or when Sam Bockarie was to go to Monrovia. It was through that that we were able to know. So just after that conversation Sam Bockarie would either talk on the radio station or Jungle will say he will come in two days time.

  • Now what normally happened with the material that Jungle brought to Buedu?

  • They will put it in the warehouse because they had two warehouses. One was at Sam Bockarie's house and the other one was not that far from Sam Bockarie's house. They will put it either in the warehouse or to the front lines to the various commanders whenever they needed arms and ammunition.

  • And did you know how Jungle brought these materials, the supplies, to Buedu?

  • Yes, I can say something about that, because Jungle's driver was with him and he told me that they picked up the arms and ammunitions from White Flower at night and they will bring it to Benjamin Yeaten's house in a pick-up and they will off-load it and reload it in a truck for Buedu and he said they would move at night.

  • Madam Witness, you said Jungle's driver, he told you this. When did Jungle's driver - what is the name of Jungle's driver? What is the name of Jungle's driver who told you this?

  • He was called Alpha.

  • Did he have a surname?

  • You said that Jungle's driver, Alpha Jalloh, would tell you or told you that they picked up the arms and ammunition from White Flower. Where was White Flower?

  • It was Charles Taylor's house in Congo Town.

  • Where?

  • In Monrovia, Congo Town.

  • And he said that they would bring the arms and ammunition to Benjamin Yeaten's house in a pick-up. Did he tell you where Benjamin Yeaten's house was?

  • Where did he say it was?

  • It was in Congo Town, close to Charles Taylor's house. Charles Taylor's house was up the hill and if you go down the hill that was where Benjamin Yeaten's house was.

  • Are you giving this answer based on your own knowledge of this location or are you saying that this is what Alpha told you?

  • Alpha told me this before I went to Monrovia. I had not been to Monrovia then, but I did not know the location of this White Flower or Benjamin Yeaten's house at that time until I myself went to Monrovia when I saw White Flower and Benjamin Yeaten's house.

  • Now did Alpha tell you how the arms and ammunition and other supplies were then moved from Benjamin Yeaten's residence to Buedu?

  • I don't understand that question.

  • How were the supplies moved? You said they were first taken from White Flower and brought to Benjamin Yeaten's residence and then they were reloaded into - you said they were reloaded into pick-ups I believe. How were they then transported to Buedu?

  • Well, that was why it was not just Jungle alone who went there. You know, the triple S, Special Security Service, guys were there. They had the uniform. They did the escort all throughout from Monrovia to Buedu.

  • When you talk about the Special Security Service guys, who are you referring to specifically?

  • I mean Jungle, Junior and Sampson.

  • Mr Bangura, I don't think your original question has been answered. Your original question was, "How were they then transported to Buedu?"

  • Well, when we get on to that original question, you have misstated her evidence. She did not say that the materials were brought to Benjamin Yeaten's residence and then they were reloaded into pick-ups as you said to the witness. She said that they were transported to Benjamin Yeaten's place in pick-ups and then they were transferred to trucks. That is what her evidence was.

  • I apologise, your Honour. I was not quite sure. I was not at the right page and I was not quite sure where they were reloaded.

  • Well, that is on page 42 at line 14. She describes how the materials were transported.

  • I take your point, your Honour:

  • Madam Witness, you have said that the materials were brought to Benjamin Yeaten's place and they were reloaded into trucks. The question was how were they transported to Buedu? How were these materials brought to Buedu?

  • I said before that Alpha told me that they used to take the arms and ammunition from White Flower, Charles Taylor's house, at night and he will take them to Benjamin Yeaten's house in Monrovia. Then everything would be off-loaded and transferred into another pick-up or other pick-ups, other vehicles, and that same night they would leave for Buedu and they would go to Buedu with those arms and ammunition.

  • And by what means did they travel?

  • Well, they will travel in vehicles, Jungle, Sampson and Junior, with the arms and ammunition in those vehicles that I have just named. They would go using the road through Foya airfield.

  • I notice in that latest answer she has omitted any reference to trucks whatsoever, but that was in her original answer.

  • Furthermore, Mr Bangura, you are a little grey about the foundation for this witness's knowledge of all this. I am more interested in finding out how she knows all this.

  • You are tapering on to her original answer of what Alpha told her, but we are not sure that all of this is what Alpha told her.

  • I will get to that, your Honour:

  • Madam Witness, you have told us that Alpha told you about how these supplies were - how they originated from Monrovia and on to the time they got to Buedu. Did you learn by any other means how these materials came to Buedu, apart from what Alpha told you?

  • Yes, Sam Bockarie himself said it. I heard it from him.

  • What did Sam Bockarie say that you heard from him?

  • Well, he told me that there are times they will go to Charles Taylor's farm in Gbarnga. That was where they will arrange. And after he would have left to come then they will transfer it to White Flower, from White Flower to Benjamin Yeaten's house and from Benjamin Yeaten's house they will come to Buedu.

  • First of all, Madam Witness, you said that Sam Bockarie told you, or told you that they would go to Charles Taylor's farm in Gbarnga and that was from where they transferred the material to White Flower and then from White Flower to Benjamin Yeaten's house. Now when did Sam Bockarie tell you this?

  • The time we were in Buedu. There were times his wife told me.

  • Was it just one time that you learnt this from Sam Bockarie's wife, or Sam Bockarie himself?

  • Well, from Sam Bockarie it was once and the other time his wife told me when he went and spent a long time.

  • Who went and spent a long time?

  • What did his wife tell you at this time?

  • His wife told me that her husband had said that he had a meeting in the farm, that is Charles Taylor's farm, and they were discussing how the things were to meet us in Buedu, she said because they had to make arrangements about the airfield, how the things were to meet us in Buedu, because the vehicles that Jungle and others were to come with were not big enough and the transportation from White Flower to 50's place - and moving from White Flower to 50 and from 50 to Buedu, that was a long process. That was why they were arranging something that could be a little faster and that's how she told me about airfield. She said her husband had said they were going to construct an airstrip where they would be bringing materials, arms and ammunition.

  • Thank you, Madam Witness. Just before we move on on this point I just want you to clarify a point that was raised earlier. Justice Lussick made the point about you talking about trucks and about pick-ups. At what point were weapons or supplies loaded into trucks and at what point were they loaded or reloaded into pick-ups? Can we be clear about that? You talked about loading from White Flower and then reloading at Benjamin Yeaten's place and you mentioned trucks, you have mentioned pick-ups. At what point were they in trucks and at what point were they in pick-ups?

  • Well, the time about the trucks, that was late 1999. At that time there was a problem between Foday Sankoh and Sam Bockarie, between Issa Sesay and Superman. It was during that time. There was no understanding between Sam Bockarie, Superman, Sam Bockarie and Foday Sankoh. So it was in that same December that they loaded up to five trucks. They had food. There was rice, onions, used clothing, sneakers, bails of sneakers, arms and ammunition in five trucks from Monrovia to Buedu. So during that time two trucks entered Buedu and that coincided with the time when Charles Taylor had told Mosquito to go to Monrovia and at that time Mosquito had sent his wife and children together with his mother, three days before we left Buedu for Monrovia. So all of them had gone.

  • Madam Witness, we are going far into an area that I actually did not ask about. The question here was when there was loading of material, weapons, arms and ammunition, from White Flower, before they were taken to Benjamin Yeaten's place what were they loaded in from White Flower? Were they loaded in pick-ups or were they loaded in trucks?

  • Well, from White Flower to Benjamin Yeaten's house it was in pick-ups.

  • And when you say they were reloaded at Benjamin Yeaten's place, where were they reloaded into, pick-ups or trucks?

  • Well, at that time the first that I am referring to it was in pick-ups. It was later that they loaded them in trucks. That was this latter part, late 1999.

  • Madam Witness, you talked about meetings that took place in Buedu. In your answer to questions on Friday you mentioned meetings that took place in Buedu. Do you recall?

  • Yes, I can recall.

  • Just before I get to meetings, apart from learning about the supplies that came through Alpha, were you at any time in Buedu when supplies came there?

  • Yes, many times. I was in Buedu all along.

  • And what were your observations at those times?

  • Well, those times they used to bring arms and ammunition and it was the same Jungle and the two people, Sampson and Junior, they were the escorts.

  • Now coming back to the point about meetings, you did in your earlier testimony say that there were meetings, about three meetings in Buedu. You already mentioned one of those meetings which you said took place when Johnny Paul Koroma came to Buedu. Do you recall that?

  • Were you present at that meeting at all?

  • Well, I was not present at that meeting.

  • How long after Johnny Paul came to Buedu was that meeting?

  • Well, it did not take up to one month that the meeting took place in Buedu.

  • Madam Witness, just so that we have some sense of time, do you know how long it was after Johnny Paul had been removed from power that he actually arrived in Buedu?

  • Well, the first meeting took place around June. The second one took place around September and the last one took place some time in December, the same year I can recall.

  • Thank you. Actually the question before that was how long after Johnny Paul - after he had been overthrown that he arrived in Buedu. Do you recall?

  • Within two to three weeks time roughly.

  • Now what was the - where was the first meeting held, the one in June, if you recall?

  • Well, I can recall the first meeting was at Waterworks.

  • And you have told this Court that in that meeting Sam Bockarie talked about unity and cooperation between the two groups, the RUF and the AFRC. Is that correct?

  • How did you know this?

  • Well, after Johnny Paul had arrived, he said it. He told Johnny Paul first that he had to convene a meeting for all the fighters, both the AFRC and the RUF, for them to put things together and to know how to operate and that he would announce to them that he had had an instruction from Sankoh that the RUF should take all orders from Johnny Paul, who was the present leader, and they were all aiming at one goal and everybody should be under Johnny Paul's command as they were having the same goal and to coordinate between the two parties how the operation was to go on.

  • Madam Witness, you have said that Sam Bockarie told Johnny Paul that he was going to convene a meeting for all the fighters. How did you know this?

  • Well, he said it in the veranda and that was an open place and I heard it.

  • Were you present when he said these words?

  • Yes, I said I heard it. I was there at the veranda and I heard it when he said it.

  • And you said that one of the - or the idea for having this meeting was so that they would discuss cooperation and so that they can coordinate between the two parties how the operation was to go on. Which operation are you referring to?

  • He meant - or I meant how the two movements, that is the AFRC and the RUF, would work together, how they should come together and work and do things in common. That's what I meant.

  • Now this meeting which you said was in June, was it before or was it after the diamonds had been taken from Johnny Paul Koroma?

  • Before the diamonds were taken from Johnny Paul.

  • Now you said the second meeting took place some time in September. Do you recall?

  • Do you recall who was present at that meeting?

  • Well, I can recall some people.

  • Who do you recall that were present at the meeting?

  • Sam Bockarie was present, Issa Sesay, Rambo too was present, Junior, Five-Five was there, Jungle was there.

  • Your Honours, can the witness call back the last name.

  • Madam Witness, the interpreter asks that you call the last name. You said, "Jungle was there". The names after that.

  • Rambo, CO Isaac. I don't understand.

  • That will do, Madam Witness.

  • Incidentally, Mr Bangura, you said September, but which year?

  • I will get to that, your Honour:

  • Madam Witness, the meeting that we are referring to, and all of these meetings, in fact, you said one was in June and another one was in September and the third one was in December. In what year was that?

  • All of these meetings were in the same year, is that what you are saying?

  • Yes.

  • Now where was the meeting held in Buedu? Where in Buedu was it held?

  • Well, it was near Sam Bockarie's house, but I will say it was in the compound.

  • Do you recall what was the purpose of convening this meeting?

  • Do you mean the second meeting?

  • Yes, the second meeting.

  • Yes, it was at that time that Issa lost the diamonds in Monrovia, the diamonds he went with. So during that time the soldiers were all disgruntled. Nothing was going on well. So he convened this meeting to come up with a punishment that was to be meted out to Issa Sesay and to encourage soldiers to capture Kono so they would be able to get back the diamonds they had lost through Issa Sesay.

  • Now who called this meeting? Who summoned the meeting?

  • It was Sam Bockarie who convened this meeting.

  • How did you know that the meeting was called for these purposes that you have explained?

  • He said it. He discussed it with Eddie Kanneh. I heard it myself when he was discussing with Eddie Kanneh that Issa had lost the diamonds and that was a big setback for the movement and the soldiers were all disgruntled and Issa feared front lines, so he wanted to convene that meeting for the boys to be happy and everybody would come up with the decision as to what punishment was to be meted out to Issa and to organise. That was he, Sam Bockarie, was to organise and give more arms and ammunition to send missions out to Kono so the boys would be happy and they would name that mission Fitti-Fatta mission.

  • Madam Witness, my question was how you knew about this and you said you heard Sam Bockarie discussing this with Eddie Kanneh and what you have just explained, was it all of what you heard from Sam Bockarie as he explained to Eddie Kanneh?

  • Yes.

  • Were you present at the meeting yourself?

  • I was not present in the meeting, but those who attended the meeting told me the same things, that that was how Sam Bockarie addressed the meeting.

  • Do you know what followed from this meeting?

  • Yes, I can recall because Issa Sesay's punishment was they said they were to send him to the front line, that was Kono, and they decided at the meeting again that they were to send boys, that is fighters, to Kono to capture Kono Town and Issa Sesay was to lead that mission. He was to go to the front line. He should be there until Kono was captured. He should clear Kono.

    And during that meeting they supplied arms and ammunition to the fighters there and many other things. They gave them a lot of supplies, they gave them a lot of rice, a lot of used clothing and brand new sneakers, white ones. Everything was in abundance.

  • Madam Witness, how did you know this; that they were given all these supplies after the meeting?

  • It was in front of his house that the warehouse was, that is the store. It was as well called ammo dump. It was in front of his house. So after that meeting everybody came there and they were supplied arms, ammunition, and lots of them, and everything that they needed for the mission and at that time I was present.

  • Who supplied who with arms and ammunition and all of these materials that you have described?

  • It was Sam Bockarie. It was Sam Bockarie who supplied Issa Sesay, Rambo and others with arms and ammunition.

  • Now you have mentioned a mission that had been assigned to Issa Sesay. Was this mission given a name?

  • Yes, it was called Fitti-Fatta mission. I had mentioned it before.

  • After the material had been supplied to Issa Sesay, Rambo and others do you know what happened?

  • Yes, they went to capture Koidu Town, but they failed, but they were able to capture some arms and ammunition and they captured some Guinean soldiers, but they were not successful in capturing Koidu Town.

  • How did you know this?

  • Well, they sent radio message about that and I read it in the logbook.

  • Do you recall who sent the radio message about the operation in - the Fitti-Fatta mission?

  • Well, it was Superman himself who sent the radio message, because Issa was afraid to send the message, so Superman sent the message.

  • And do you recall who the message was sent to?

  • Yes, they sent the message to Sam Bockarie.

  • You mentioned Superman. Where was he at this time?

  • He himself was around Kono.

  • After this operation, or this mission, do you recall any other mission that was undertaken around this time, or later?

  • Well, after that mission had failed they carried - they undertook another mission around the Kono axis and they used to say, "Tell the civilians to take their hands off from the war" or, "Take their hands off and their feet off from the war". That was the time they were amputating the civilians' arms and they were writing on them "RUF" and they amputated - they cut off their feet as well.

  • What was this mission about, the mission that you just mentioned?

  • Well, they said because it was the civilians who used to leak information to the ECOMOG soldiers that they were coming, so that was the reason why they failed to capture Koidu Town.

  • When you say they sent the mission, who sent the mission?

  • It was Mosquito, Sam Bockarie, who instructed Superman and Superman instructed Komba Gbundema. Komba Gbundema was the one who led the mission.

  • What did - what did Mosquito instruct Superman to do?

  • He said because they had failed to capture Koidu Town they were to set example on one or two civilians so if the others saw that they would be afraid.

  • Why was Mosquito - or why did they have to set one or two examples on civilians, do you know?

  • Well, they said it was because the civilians were the ones who leaked the information to ECOMOG that they were coming around, that they were around there, that any movement that they took it was civilians who would pass the information on to ECOMOG.

  • When you say they were coming --

  • Mr Anyah?

  • Madam President, I would be grateful for some foundation as to when both the Fitti-Fatta mission took place and the second operation. I do know there is evidence that in 1999 there was a meeting in September where Fitti-Fatta was discussed. It's not the same as when that "operation" took place and when this second operation about amputations also took place.

  • Your Honour, I am not too sure about the point. My learned friend mentioned that he is aware that there was an operation or a meeting in 1999. I am not sure whether that was --

  • The Fitti-Fatta movement was discussed, but when was it actually implemented? That is the question.

  • Yes, your Honour asked the question - the witness gave three months indications and your Honour asked the question what year was it that the second meeting took place. The evidence that came out was it was September in 1999 and all that we have is that Fitti-Fatta was discussed in September 1999. We don't have any anything on the record as to exactly it took place. Neither is there anything on the record as to when this second operation when hands were amputated took place.

  • I think that is a point, Mr Bangura, the actual times following the discussion. However, we are out of time for the tape and therefore we will take the break now and follow this up after the break.

    Madam Witness, it's now time for the mid-morning break. We are going to adjourn court for half an hour and we will start court again at 12 o'clock. Please adjourn Court.

  • [Break taken at 11.30 a.m.]

  • [Upon resuming at 12.00 p.m.]

  • Mr Bangura, please proceed. And you will recall just before the break we were following up on this timing of the first and the second operation. And I note a change of appearance at your bar which I have not recorded.

  • Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, we have Mr Nicholas Koumjian on the Prosecution bench at this time.

  • Thank you, Mr Bangura, so I will just revert --

  • Ms Brenda J Hollis left, thank you.

  • And, Madam President, our bar remains as before. Thank you.

  • Thank you, Mr Anyah. I was inviting you to proceed and reminding you of the two dates for the two operations which was an issue that had arisen before we took the short break.

  • Thank you, your Honour:

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned that there were three meetings that took place in Buedu, do you recall?

  • Now these three meetings that you have referred to, were they within the same year that Johnny Paul Koroma was removed from power in Freetown?

  • Madam President, I object to the leading nature of that question. That question was posed previously and the answer - it wasn't posed in this particular form, but something to the same effect was posed, whether the meetings took place before or after Johnny Paul left office and now counsel is piggybacking on that and the inference is to lead the witness.

  • Plus you have already - well, you have already asked this question. I recall that series of questions clearly and so you are coming close to cross-examining your own witness, Mr Bangura. The question is to do with the dates of the two operations, not the meetings.

  • Your Honours, I will proceed:

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned the Fitti-Fatta mission. Do you recall that?

  • When was the Fitti-Fatta mission? Was it actually - you mentioned that you heard about the mission being discussed, is that right?

  • Before the meeting that was convened and you mentioned also that there were supplies of arms and ammunition and other material to Issa Sesay and Rambo and others. Do you recall that?

  • Do you recall when the mission itself took place?

  • Well, the meeting took place some time around September.

  • Madam Witness, we are talking of a mission, the Fitti-Fatta mission. [Microphone not activated] meeting. We are talking of a mission.

  • Well, it was after the meeting that the mission took place. It was during that meeting that the mission was discussed, the mission that was to go on.

  • And do you recall how long after the meeting that the mission took place?

  • Well, it was within two to three weeks time.

  • You then also mentioned another mission which you said was undertaken after the Fitti-Fatta mission failed, do you recall?

  • Well, yes, I recall that.

  • And you said that instructions were given by Sam Bockarie to Superman for this mission. Do you recall?

  • And the mission had to do - can you remind the Court again what the mission was about?

  • Well, because the fighters failed to capture Koidu Town, I earlier informed the Court that they were able to capture some arms and ammunition and some Guinean soldiers.

  • But then you mentioned that after this some instructions were given to Superman to do with civilians and that's the mission I am referring to. Do you recall that?

  • Yes. They said Sam Bockarie told Superman that he should instruct his men for them to set one or two examples on civilians.

  • And how long after the Fitti-Fatta mission was this new mission that you're talking about in which Sam Bockarie instructed Superman to go on?

  • It was within three to four months time. Between three and four months.

  • And exactly what was Superman instructed to do?

  • Well, Sam Bockarie told Superman that he should set one or two examples on civilians so that will instill fear in the other civilians and they will not be leaking information to the ECOMOG soldiers.

  • How was Superman supposed to set examples - an example on civilians?

  • Well, he was to kill either one or two or to amputate some of their hands and to tell them to take their hands off the war.

  • How did you learn about these instructions [microphone not activated] to Superman?

  • I read it in the logbook and I heard it when he was giving the instructions. I heard it from a distance, but later I went to the radio room to make sure that it was really true.

  • When you said you read it in the logbook, which logbook? I am sorry, I withdraw that, your Honours. Where was this logbook? Where did you read this message in the logbook?

  • It was in the station, RUF radio station, in Buedu.

  • Do you know whether these instructions were carried out by Superman?

  • Yes, after two or three days I heard it over the SLBS radio that around the Kono axis rebels were cutting off civilians' hands and they were killing civilians.

  • Is that all that you learnt about what happened?

  • After that, I enquired in the station, I went there, and it was not long after that that Sam Bockarie went there and he called Komba Gbundema to be sure that was what had occurred in the place. And Sam Bockarie told Komba Gbundema that that was enough, he said because as long as the whole world had heard about the killings and the amputations let that be enough, let it stop there.

  • Madam Witness, you said you went to enquire at the radio room and then Sam Bockarie came there. How did Sam Bockarie talk to Komba Gbundema?

  • Well, the operator who was on the set at Komba Gbundema's was the one who gave all the information to Superman at the radio station. This was a dialogue among the three commanders, Komba Gbundema, Superman and Sam Bockarie. So after Sam Bockarie had asked Superman about this instruction, Superman said yes, that was what happened. Then he said, well, he should instruct his boys to stop the killings and the amputation because the whole world had heard about it.

  • Do you know where Komba Gbundema was at this time, where he carried out this operation?

  • Well, at that time I heard that he was around that Saama [phon] Bendugu area, around the Kono District, but I don't know the area because he hadn't a permanent base at that time.

  • And do you recall the operator for Komba Gbundema who passed information on to Sam Bockarie confirming the state of affairs?

  • Well, at that time it was Alice Pyne. Because there were two operator there is. Alice Pyne was there and Jusu was there, but it was Alice Pyne who coordinated the dialogue.

  • Madam Witness, can we be clear about the second operator. You said Alice Pyne and who was the other person?

  • J-U - he was called Jusu, but I don't know his other name.

  • Did you know of any other operation that took place in the Kono area apart from the two that you have discussed already?

  • Well, operations used to go on, but I cannot recall them now.

  • Mr Bangura, sorry to take you a little back. The witness just said something that is rather ambiguous. Let me just find it. I am looking at page 63, line 13, or line 11 where you ask her, "Is that all that you learnt about what happened?" And she answered, "After I enquired in the station", that's the radio station, "I went there and it was not long after that that Sam Bockarie went there and he called Komba Gbundema". I am not sure where "there" is? Is that to Kono where these things had happened, or where?

  • I will take it up, your Honour:

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned that after you learnt from the radio, SLBS radio, about crimes that had been committed in the Kono axis, you then went to the radio station to find out?

  • That is not what she said, Mr Bangura, and that is precisely my point. You keep saying she went to the radio station. I have shown you the text. You are the one saying she went to the radio station. She didn't.

  • You said you went "there" and you said Sam Bockarie after a while went "there". When you say "there" where do you refer to?

  • I said I went to the radio station to go and enquire if it was correct. It was not long after that that Sam Bockarie went to the radio station. I think that is clear enough now is.

  • Thank you, Madam Witness. It is clear.

  • Okay, thank you.

  • Madam Witness, do you recall an operation called Spare No Soul?

  • What do you recall about this operation?

  • Well, I can recall at that time when they said Abacha had died, Sani Abacha. So it was during that time - I can recall that operation because at that time people of were happy, the RUF soldiers were, the commanders, everybody was happy at that time.

  • And do you recall exactly what happened during that period?

  • Well, it was that time - because that time when Abacha died was the time that that mission was arranged, because the Spare No Soul mission, Sam Bockarie said because Abacha had died and he was one of the big men for ECOMOG and that he was dead the soldiers would be weakened, everybody would be discouraged, so if they undertook any operation at that time they would be able to chase the ECOMOG out and they would be able to regain their positions because they were sad at that time and that would weaken them. That was why the mission was called operation Spare No Soul and they were not to capture soldiers - they were not to capture ECOMOG soldiers and take them to him in Buedu. Spare No Soul meant that anybody who saw any of them, they should kill those soldiers. Any soldier they saw was to be killed. They were not to take any soldier to him in Buedu.

  • Madam Witness, do you recall where this mission took place, or this operation took place?

  • Well, it was around that Kono axis, but I don't know the particular place.

  • Do you recall whether any particular commander was involved in this operation?

  • Well, Komba Gbundema. I can still recall that Komba Gbundema went on this operation.

  • And do you recall what happened during the course of this operation?

  • Yes, Komba Gbundema reported that they killed many civilians and ECOMOG soldiers too during this operation.

  • And who did Komba Gbundema report this information to?

  • He reported it to Superman and Sam Bockarie.

  • How did you know that Komba Gbundema reported this information to Superman and Sam Bockarie?

  • Alice Pyne told me this and the other operator who was on duty at that time to Sam Bockarie, who was Ebony, he too said that and I read it in a logbook as well.

  • When you say Alice Pyne told you this, how did she tell you?

  • Well, she came on and said they went on a mission and said that was how things happened, that they killed many civilians and they said - and she said anybody who saw them, that person was a dead person. And anybody they saw too, that person was a dead person.

  • You said you also learnt this information from Ebony? Where did you learn this from Ebony?

  • He was on duty at that time. He was on set, Planet 1 radio station.

  • You have talked about other missions that --

  • Mr Bangura, when a witness says, "Anybody who saw them" and, "They saw too that person was a dead man", who is "them" and "they"? And what does its mean "was a dead person"?

  • Madam Witness, you have said that when they went on the mission - I asked you how the things happened and you said, "They killed many civilians and they said - she said anybody who saw them, that person was a dead person. And anybody they saw too, that person was a dead person". What do you mean? Can you explain that?

  • It is not exactly what do you mean. As Justice Sebutinde has pointed out that there is also "they" and "them" as well as the meaning of the expression.

  • The RUF, that was Komba Gbundema and his group.

  • You have used "they" and "them" referring to different people. Who are "they" and who are "them"?

  • That's what I wanted to clarify. Komba Gbundema's group that undertook the mission around the Kono axis, they said any civilian whom they saw, that civilian - they will kill that civilian. And anybody who saw them, they will kill that person and if - Komba Gbundema's group, that is the RUF fighters, if they spared any - if they wanted to for example spare the civilian, that civilian's hand would be amputated. That would be the only way they would spare that civilian.

  • And when you say "that was a dead person", what do you mean? Talking about dead person, what do you mean?

  • They will kill that person. They will kill that person. That's what I meant.

  • Thank you. Madam Witness, you talked about other operations or when you have talked about other operations already you talked about Fitti-Fatta and you talked about another operation where civilians were targeted for being involved in the war. Now this Operation Spare No Soul that you have talked about, was it before or was it after any of those two operations?

  • This Spare No Soul preceded the Fitti-Fatta. After Spare No Soul and Fitti-Fatta it was just continuation. They did not rest even. They used to run some minor operations within the Kono axis. They did not base anywhere any more. They used to run some minor operations to gain some more ground from the ECOMOG soldiers.

  • Are you able to give us a sense of time between the Spare No Soul operation, how long it took before they then went to the Fitti-Fatta. You said these were operations that were going on.

  • It was within three to four months time, maybe.

  • Mr Bangura, is this witness not able to say precisely in the month of so and so? Why do you have to give us these relative timings if the witness is able to say in the month of so and so in this year this operation happened. You haven't tested her.

  • Your Honour, I will try and test the witness:

  • Do you recall in what - you have said that the Operation Spare No Soul took place during the - or when Abacha died. Do you recall that?

  • Yes.

  • And then you said after that they had Fitti-Fatta mission. Do you recall that?

  • And do you recall in what month that was? You have said between three to four months. Can you tell us about what month?

  • Well, I will try, because it was just after those meetings that the operations took place and, as I have earlier told the Court, the first meeting took place around June, then the second one took place around September and the third one some time around December. That was before the January 6th.

  • Thank you, Madam Witness. Madam Witness, you mentioned - when talking about supplies that came from Monrovia to Buedu you mentioned that Jungle would come with food, clothing, arms and ammunition and that he came frequently. How frequently did Jungle come on those trips?

  • Well, Jungle used to come any time Sam Bockarie requested for ammunition or any time Sam Bockarie got information from the front line commanders that they were short of arms and ammunition, so he used to call. That was how Jungle came. That was why he came. Maybe there are times after every two weeks and there are times after every three weeks. He used to come there frequently.

  • And these trips occurred within what period? Do you recall within what period he made these frequent trips to Buedu?

  • Well, those frequent trips were from early 1998, throughout '98 to mid-1999.

  • When you say the frequent trips, after mid-1999 how would you describe them? Were there other trips after mid-1999?

  • Yes, that was Sam Bockarie himself. He used to go to Monrovia.

  • How frequently did Sam Bockarie travel to Monrovia himself?

  • He used to go to Monrovia after two weeks, maybe - at times when he would come it may not be even up to two weeks then he will go, but there are times he will spend a month before he will go there again. That was how it was.

  • Madam Witness, your evidence is that Sam Bockarie was in Buedu between early '98 to the end of 1999 before he left to go to Monrovia. Is that correct?

  • Within this period how would you describe the trips that he made? You have talked about sometimes within two week intervals. You have also talked about sometimes a month. At what period would he or did he make trips that were within the two week intervals? Over what period did he do longer intervals?

  • Well, whenever he had diamonds from Kono he will go there frequently, after every two weeks he would go. And at that time he used to go by air, by helicopter. He will take off from Buedu using a vehicle and that - Marvel would escort him to Foya airfield and from Foya airfield he will board the helicopter to Monrovia.

  • Madam Witness, let us focus first in the first year, 1998. Were the trips very frequent in 1998?

  • Well, they were not very frequent. It was Jungle who used to go there frequently. He used to go there once in a while. His trips were not very frequent as compared to 1999.

  • Mr Bangura, is the "he", Jungle or who?

  • Madam Witness, when you said "he" and referring to his trips were not so frequent, who were you referring to?

  • Sam Bockarie's trips were not very frequent at that time. It was Jungle who used to come there frequently. Even though Sam Bockarie himself used to travel there, but it was not very frequent, as compared to 1999 when he used to go there.

  • You mentioned that Sam Bockarie would make trips to Monrovia when he had diamonds. How did you know this?

  • He had people that brought diamonds. There were RUF soldiers in Kono who used to bring diamonds to him. Whenever the RUF soldiers would bring these diamonds within that two days he would go to Monrovia.

  • How did you know that RUF soldiers from Kono brought diamonds to him?

  • I heard it from Sam Bockarie and his wife.

  • What did you hear from Sam Bockarie and his wife? Sam Bockarie, first of all.

  • Well, there were times Sam Bockarie would discuss with Issa whenever Issa would come from Kono to Buedu. And there are times he will discuss it with Eddie Kanneh if Issa was not present. He would say, "I have had some amount of diamonds, some quantity of diamonds. I will travel to Monrovia one of these two days" and one of these two days that he would be referring to he must travel.

  • Now how did you learn --

  • Mr Bangura, it's not clear. Look at the quotation on the transcript. "I have heard some amount of diamond, Sam quantity of diamonds. I will travel to Monrovia one of these two days". What's that?

  • Madam Witness, when you say, "I will travel to Monrovia one of these two days" what do you mean?

  • No, Mr Bangura, "I have heard some amount of diamonds". What does that mean?

  • Madam Witness, it's recorded here that you say you had heard, meaning you - he'd heard some amount of diamonds. Is that - what does that mean? "Heard" meaning hearing, to hear. That is what is recorded. Can you say again what you said what Sam Bockarie would say?

  • I said I heard when Sam Bockarie would speak to Issa Sesay or Eddie Kanneh, I would hear him telling Eddie Kanneh saying that he had received some diamonds and that he would either travel today or tomorrow and he must travel within those two days that he would mention.

  • You also mentioned that you heard information from Sam Bockarie's wife about his travelling to Liberia with diamonds. Exactly what did you hear?

  • There were times she will tell me that, "Well, very soon all of us would be the same, because my husband will be going to Monrovia. He has received some diamonds. 50 has requested him to go" or, "Charles Taylor has asked that he should go. In fact, the diamonds, some of the diamonds that he had he had given some to me because he is not going to go with everything". So she will just jokingly tell me that all of us are going to be the same because I am going to be husbandless one of these days because my husband will be going to Liberia.

  • Madam Witness, from the answer you've just given it's not clear whether you are referring to one particular instance where Sam Bockarie's wife told you this or whether you're referring to a situation that occurred on more than one occasion. Can you be clear what - when did you get this --

  • I am talking about many times, not just one trip, not a day's thing. She did not just tell me that once. I am referring to the wife.

  • Now what was the name of Sam Bockarie's wife that you are referring to?

  • She was called Hawa.

  • Now you mentioned that Bockarie would travel whenever RUF officers came from Kono and brought him diamonds. Do you recall that?

  • Yes. They will send a radio message. They would not just come like that. They would only come after he had asked them to come and receive arms and ammunition, but whenever he had a request from any of the commanders he would either go or Jungle and others would come to Buedu.

  • Madam Witness, it is not quite clear who went. The question was we are talking of commanders coming from Kono and you're talking of either he goes or Jungle came. It's not so clear. Can you explain? The question is how did you know that these commanders were coming from Kono to Sam Bockarie?

  • What I said is the commanders would not just leave the front lines like that and come. They would receive a radio message and they will send an information asking Sam Bockarie in Buedu that they wanted arms and ammunition, so he, Sam Bockarie, will tell them to either come and receive the arms and ammunition or he, Sam Bockarie, if there was shortage at the warehouse he will travel to Monrovia. Or if Sam Bockarie did not travel to Monrovia, Jungle and others will come from Monrovia to Buedu with arms and ammunition.

  • I was asking about commanders coming, you said when they had diamonds. That's the point. I am not talking about Jungle travelling from Buedu.

  • I meant a commander would not just come to Buedu like that. There was a mining commander in Kono. There was a mining commander in Kono, so when they would have presented the diamonds to him there were two people that I understood or that I can still recall used to bring diamonds to Buedu to Sam Bockarie. Kennedy was one and other one was KGB. Those are the two people I can recall their names who used to bring diamonds in Buedu to Sam Bockarie.

    So whenever they came I would know that they had brought diamonds, or whenever they got diamonds they will be in Kono and tell Sam Bockarie that they had had some things, and that was diamonds, so Sam Bockarie in turn would instruct the mining commander to send the diamonds by - through KGB or Kennedy to bring the diamonds to Kono - sorry, to Buedu.

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned two names of mining commanders and you said "when they" --

  • Madam President, I don't believe the witness referred to either Kennedy or KGB as being mining commanders. I thought she meant that they were the couriers sent by the commanders.

  • I think, Mr Bangura, that is what the witness has said. "... I still recall used to bring diamonds to Sam Bockarie. Kennedy was one and the other was KGB". The word commander is not on record.

  • I do not wish to argue it. I will get the witness to clarify, but reading from the beginning of line - page 78, line 10, I think the witness starts talking about a mining commander from Kono and she continues along that line and mentions the names, but I will get the witness to clarify.

  • It appears Mr Anyah has accepted what you have said.

  • I am sorry, I do not.

  • Sorry, Madam President. I am looking at page 76. Counsel's initial question starts at line 4 and the response continues up until line 12. The question was:

    "Q. I was asking about commanders coming and you said when

    they had diamonds. That is the point. I am not talking

    about Jungle travelling from Buedu.

    A. I meant a commander would not just come to Buedu like

    that. There was a mining commander in Kono. There was a

    mining commander in Kono, so when they would have presented

    the diamond to him there, there were two people that I

    understood or that I can still recall used to bring

    diamonds to Buedu to Sam Bockarie. Kennedy was one and the

    other was KGB."

    My objection is that the witness is saying Kennedy and KGB are couriers and she didn't refer to them as commanders.

  • I understood that completely, Mr Anyah, and then Mr Bangura has undertaken to clarify the point.

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned two names, Kennedy and KGB. Do you know whether these two persons had any particular titles that they carried for the work they were doing?

  • Well, they had titles, but for now I cannot recall. They had titles.

  • You mentioned mining commanders in one of your previous answers. Who were the mining commanders that you were referring to?

  • Well, there was one called Moriba. There was a mining commander I can recall in Kono, he was called Moriba. But those two people that I have just mentioned their names, KGB and Kennedy, they were the ones who brought the diamonds to Buedu to Mosquito, but the diamond commander himself was in Kono at that time who was called Moriba, I don't know his last name or if he had any other name, but that was the name I knew for him at that time.

  • Do you recall how often KGB and Kennedy came to Buedu?

  • Yes, the two of them never came there at the same time. They did not come together. If for example this one comes this trip, the next trip the other one would come. If Kennedy comes this trip - because there were various areas, not just one place or one village that they mining in the Kono area. There were different places. So when this one would come from this other angle, when they would have given diamonds to that person he would bring them. And this other one, he came from other angle, when diamonds would be given to him he would bring them. The two of them did not come together at the same time. When this one comes this time the other one would come some other time. They never came at the same time.

  • Madam Witness, do you recall over what period these two men KGB and Kennedy came from Kono with diamonds to Sam Bockarie in Buedu?

  • They used to come many times. I cannot recall the number of times now, because I did not keep record of that. But they came there frequently. Whenever they got something they would bring it.

  • Now how did you know that they had brought diamonds when they came to Sam Bockarie in Buedu?

  • Madam President, with respect, we still don't have the date when this was happening and that is what counsel was trying to elicit and the question was not answered by the witness and it has now moved to another question.

  • Your Honours, the witness has given us what would be in her knowledge and estimation some idea of when diamonds were brought. Your Honours, I can pursue that further, but the point is that we are operating within a time frame and the witness has not been quite precise, I take the point, but this is the witness's recollection.

  • Mr Bangura, the witness said, "They came many times. I cannot recall the number of times. I did not keep a record. They came frequently", but I do not know from that and what precedes it within what time or what years these frequent trips were made; whether it was over a period of one or two years, or one or two months and, if so, in which dates.

  • Madam Witness, your evidence is that Sam Bockarie was in Buedu between 1998, early '98, and late 1999. Is that correct?

  • Now, these two men who came from Kono, KGB and Kennedy, within what period did they come to Buedu with diamonds?

  • From 1998 to late 1999 up to that month, December, when they went to Monrovia.

  • Now you have said that they would come frequently sometimes. How frequent were they on these trips to Sam Bockarie within the time period that we are talking about?

  • Well, there were times they used to come every two weeks and sometimes they used to come monthly.

  • And did this frequency continue right through between '98 and 1999?

  • Madam Witness, you mentioned three meetings and we have talked about two of those meetings in Buedu and you said there was a third meeting with which took place some time in December, is that right?

  • Yes.

  • Who convened this meeting?

  • It was Sam Bockarie who convened this meeting. He said it was for all vanguards, the meeting was meant for all vanguards, because after Issa had lost that diamond there was no cooperation and the punishment that was meted out to him to go and clear Kono was not successful. He did not succeed in capturing Kono, so the soldiers were disgruntled. There were some problems then between Superman and Issa Sesay and Superman and Sam Bockarie, so there was no understanding.

    Even among the vanguards there were misunderstandings, and after the raiding of JPK, that is Johnny Paul Koroma, they called for SAJ and the other people and they did not go there and after JPK had been raided the problem spread, there was no unity, there was no understanding within the command structure, so there were a lot of problems. That was why the meeting was called for the vanguards, so they will put the boys under control, because everybody was doing his own thing. That was why they called this meeting particularly in Buedu.

  • How did you know that these were the reasons why the meeting was called?

  • Well, whenever Sam Bockarie would call a meeting he would announce it. He will say it. He will discuss it either with Issa Sesay or with Eddie Kanneh, those two people. He will say it to them before ever he would convene the meeting. That was how I knew about the meeting.

  • [Microphone not activated] this meeting, did Sam Bockarie discuss the idea of a meeting before the meeting took place with any of the two persons that you have mentioned?

  • Yes, he discussed it with Eddie Kanneh and in that same meeting they discussed about the Kono issue. From Kono they were to advance to Freetown, because during that time --

  • Witness, can I pause you for a while. We will get to --

  • Now when you say that this meeting was discussed with Eddie Kanneh, where was it discussed before the meeting I am referring to - this is your evidence that this meeting was discussed, the idea of a meeting was discussed with Eddie Kanneh by Sam Bockarie. Where was it discussed?

  • Well, it was at Sam Bockarie's veranda where they were eating. By then they were serving them food, so he was discussing that with Eddie Kanneh. That was how I heard it.

  • When you say they were serving them food, who were the "they" who were serving them food?

  • Madam Witness, did you hear the question?

  • Can you answer the question?

  • Mr Bangura, I don't know. In private session this witness laid out a number of roles that she did not want the public to know she performed. Now this question you are asking, I don't know if it is one of those roles that you are alluding to, because the witness is hesitant.

  • I was just going to get the witness to --

  • She is your witness and you have the information, we don't, but I can see from her face that she is distraught.

  • Madam Witness, you have said that they were being served food and then the discussion took place about the meeting - Sam Bockarie discussed the meeting.

  • Well, somebody was serving them food and I was around and I heard him discuss it with Eddie Kanneh.

  • And you have said --

  • Pause, Mr Bangura. Mr Anyah?

  • Madam President, may I request a private session? I would like to be heard on this issue in private session.

  • This issue of the sequence of questions and the answer just given by the witness.

  • Do you mean you are making an objection?

  • Yes, I would like to make that objection in private session.

  • Your Honours, in the interests of the security of the witness I would not object to the application. It is difficult the know what the nature of the objection is, but if it relates to the security of the witness I would not object.

  • [Trial Chamber conferred]

  • We will grant that application. For those members of the public that are within the Court precincts and monitors listening, there will be some legal argument. It will be in private session for reasons of security of the witness. Please implement that.

    Madam Witness, there is going to be something said by the lawyers. It will not be heard by anybody else. It will not be broadcast. It will only be heard by the people inside the Court. Do you understand?

  • [At this point in the proceedings, a portion of the transcript, pages 15695 to 15699, was extracted and sealed under separate cover, as the proceeding was heard in private session.]

  • [Open session]

  • Your Honour, we are in open session.

  • Madam Witness, we are back in open session and I again remind you of your obligation to ensure that your answers do not reveal your security. Mr Bangura, proceed.

  • Your Honour, just to get the witness to be reassured that the series of questions which we have just had were actually in private session. I am not too sure whether the witness was quite aware of that fact. I may not have got the point:

  • Madam Witness, we were talking about this meeting that took place and the point we last discussed was Sam Bockarie discussing the idea of a meeting with Eddie Kanneh. You said that during the meeting they also discussed something about Freetown, about moving towards Freetown. Do you recall saying that?

  • Can you explain clearly what they discussed at the meeting about Freetown?

  • He said they should discuss about how to go and attack Freetown during that particular mission and that they were at first supposed to clear up Kono and he said that Kono, Superman and Komba Gbundema and others should combine. It should be a uniform mission. They together with SAJ and others, because by then there weren't existing communication between them. He said after they and SAJ would have cleared up Kono they should go to Kabala and from Kabala they should proceed to Freetown. That was what he meant by "discuss", because by then there wasn't any communication between Sam Bockarie and SAJ.

  • Madam Witness, the matters that you have just talked about, were they matters which were discussed at the meeting, or were they matters which Sam Bockarie discussed with Eddie Kanneh during the time they were having food together?

  • Well, what I have just explained to you was the discussion that took place between he and Eddie Kanneh whilst they were taking meal together.

  • Do you recall where the meeting took place?

  • Well, it was in Buedu at Sam Bockarie's house.

  • And do you recall the persons who were present at this meeting?

  • Well, Isaac was present, that is CO Isaac, Morris Kallon was there, Issa Sesay was there, Abu Keita was there, together with some other people.

  • Now you mentioned Abu Keita. Who was he?

  • Well, he was a Liberian fighter. A soldier, I mean.

  • How did you know he was a Liberian soldier?

  • Well, he only spoke Liberian English. He was not speaking Krio, nor English. He was only speaking Liberian English.

  • And did you know why he was there?

  • Well, he was one of the fighters who had joined the RUF to fight.

  • Do you know when he joined the RUF to fight?

  • Well, I only saw him in Buedu and I only came to know him in Buedu.

  • Do you know where he came from before he came to Buedu?

  • Yes, he came from the Liberian side.

  • And do you know what was decided or discussed at the meeting?

  • Well, I did not attend the meeting, but that was what I heard even before the meeting itself took place.

  • Did you learn about what was discussed at the meeting later?

  • Yes, just the same thing I have explained, those were the things they discussed. That is to go and re-attack Kono, that is the RUF fighters.

  • Now back to Abu Keita. Do you know whether he belonged to any group in Liberia from where he came?

  • Well, I only knew that he was a Liberian fighter, but I did not actually know to which group he initially belonged.

  • Madam Witness, apart from Abu Keita, at this time do you know whether there were any other Liberian fighters in Buedu?

  • Yes, I later knew about one Senegalese.

  • Who was Senegalese?