And again I remind you to speak slowly so the interpreters and the court reporters can make sure they have everything you say correctly recorded. Mr Koumjian, please proceed.

Yes.

Good morning, sir, and also to remind you if you can continue, as you did in the afternoon yesterday, when you give a longer answer to pause after every sentence or two. Sir, when we were talking yesterday you explained to the Court that you had left Kono and gone with Komba Gbundema up to Kurubonla. When was the next time you saw Superman?

I saw him in Kurubonla.

When was it that Superman arrived in Kurubonla?

After the attack on Mongor Bendugu.

Thank you. When Superman arrived what happened?

They held a forum.

Who was present at this forum after Superman arrived?

SAJ Musa, Superman, General Bropleh, Brigadier Mani, Colonel T and others.

Was this a commanders' forum or was it an open forum for all fighters?

Commanders' forum.

Were you present at the forum?

Yes.

Can you please tell us what was discussed at this forum after Superman's arrival?

Yes.

Please explain to us.

When Superman got there, when the forum was convened Superman briefed SAJ Musa. He told SAJ Musa that Sam Bockarie had told him to go and work along with SAJ Musa to try and get to Kabala.

Did Superman explain anything else about the plans for the forces that he had joined?

Yes, he further explained to SAJ that Sam Bockarie told him to work along with the AFRC to join forces, that it would be good for them to get back to Freetown.

Was there any discussion of any plans for offensives after Kabala?

Yes.

Please explain what was talked about at this forum regarding the offensives planned.

In the forum they said we should go and attack Kabala. If the attack is successful we should advance to Makeni and from Makeni we were to advance to Freetown. When we got to Kabala we had some problems there.

Okay. Mr Witness, just sticking to the forum for now, when you heard Superman talk about going all the way on to Freetown, did that surprise you that Freetown was an objective?

Your Honours, can he repeat that answer.

Mr Witness, the interpreter did not hear you. You must repeat your --

Perhaps, Mr Witness, I don't know if you're uncomfortable but if you could move your chair closer to the microphone it would be easier for you, I believe. Let me repeat the question for you, sir.

Thank you, Mr Koumjian. I think that's the best thing to do.

My question was in the forum when you heard Superman talk about the offensive and having an objective to go all the way to Freetown, did that surprise you?

No, it did not surprise me.

Can you explain to us why it did not surprise you?

Yes, because we knew that when we came together we will make it when we got back to Freetown. That was why it was not a surprise to me.

When Superman arrived in Kurubonla did he come with any men, or supplies, or ammunition?

Yes, he came with some men, some bodyguards and some ammunition.

Were his men armed?

Yes, they were well armed.

Can you tell us anything else about the ammunition that Superman brought with him?

Yes. It was the same ammunition that we had brought from Gbarnga. That's what they used to reinforce us, the ammunition.

And what led you to that conclusion? Why do you believe it was the same ammunition you brought from Gbarnga?

Because I knew the boxes. They had different rounds that we were using in Liberia and Sierra Leone. They were not among the ammunition.

Correction, interpreter. "We knew the differences between the ammunitions."

What kinds of ammunition was it that Superman brought?

AK rounds, GMG rounds, RPG rockets and some mortar bombs.

Sir, you have told us that at the forum Superman talked about attacking Kabala and eventually going to Freetown. What was the reaction of the SLA officer SAJ Musa --

Mr Koumjian, we are not sure which of the officers said that. It simply says, "At the forum they said we should go and attack Kabala." I am personally wondering who "they" are.

Okay, thank you very much:

Mr Witness, who at the forum talked about attacking - first, who at forum talked about attacking Kabala?

Superman and SAJ Musa.

One or - are you saying one of them, you're not sure which one? Are you saying both? Can you explain to us?

Superman was the first that made the proposal to attack Kabala and SAJ Musa supported him that he too was planning to attack Kabala, but he hadn't the manpower and ammunition, so it was good for them to go and attack Kabala.

And who at the forum spoke about going to Makeni and Freetown?

SAJ Musa.

What was the reaction of Superman?

Superman said when they got to Kabala, when we would have gotten Kabala we would take another mission for Makeni, but our first mission was for Kabala.

After this forum was there an attack on Kabala?

Yes.

About how long after the forum did the attack take place?

After the forum the following day we started moving, but we spent a week on the way to attack Kabala.

When you say "we started moving", what was the composition of the forces that attacked Kabala?

Superman was there, SAJ Musa and some STF fighters. Both AFRC, RUF, STF fighters, but Superman and SAJ Musa were leading the attack.

Was Kabala defended by any force?

Yes, they had two ECOMOG forces in Kabala at the time.

What were the two ECOMOG forces in Kabala at that time?

The Guinean and Nigerian contingents.

What happened when you attacked Kabala?

We took Kabala for three days.

Were you - when I say "you", the AFRC and RUF forces. Were you able to capture all of the town of Kabala?

No.

Please explain that.

We entered, we took over the town, but they had one secondary school there called Kabala Secondary School. We were unable to take over that campus. That was where the Guinean contingents were based.

Were any ammunition or weapons captured during this attack?

Yes, we captured a lot of weapons and ammunition from the Guinean contingent.

"From the Nigerian contingent", instead of Guinean.

What ammunition was used for the attack on Kabala?

Well, the ammunition that we captured from Mongor, the remaining ammunition that Superman brought with him.

Can you now recall specifically any of the weapons that were captured in Kabala during that attack and if you can't, just tell us?

I can recall some.

Please tell us what you remember.

They had a weapon called FM, the LAR rifles from the ECOMOG contingent, we captured up to 400. And some pistols and other weapons that I can remember.

Okay, thank you. Mr Witness, the transcript didn't get all of that so I am going to repeat what we did understand and ask you to repeat what we did not.

Before my learned friend talks about what we understood, I didn't understand very much and I would like the witness to explain.

We will start with the witness repeating his answer. Mr Witness, parts of your answer were not heard clearly. Please repeat your answer. If necessary we will ask to have the question put again.

Ask the question again.

Your Honour, what I was going to do was read the transcript up to the indiscernible and then ask the witness to continue.

If you put the question again, please, Mr Koumjian.

I will restate the question:

Mr Witness, can you tell us what you remember about any weapons captured in Kabala?

Yes.

Please say it slowly, especially when you get to the names of the weapons because we are not all familiar with those. So please explain.

Yes, we captured some AK-47s, LAR rifles and some pistols, mortar.

Okay, the end of your answer you said "pistols, mortar". Are those two different weapons, just to be clear?

Yes, when I talk about pistols they are side weapons. When I talk about mortar they are heavy weapons, mortar guns. Mortar guns.

Can you describe for us the mortar guns that were captured?

Yes, we captured 60 millimetre mortar bombs, 81 millimetre mortar guns.

Thank you. Mr Witness, what happened after the three days that you occupied Kabala?

They pushed us out of Kabala and we retreated from Kabala.

Just before we move out of Kabala, Mr Koumjian, I notice in the first answer the witness mentioned something called "FMs" and I don't know what an FM is.

FM is the same LAR, but we cut it short, FM.

Thank you.

Just so we are clear, what is an LAR?

That gun was always used by the Nigerian contingent. I don't know much about it.

Is it a heavy weapon, is it a firearm, a handgun or a rifle?

It is a heavy weapon, because it is bigger than an AK-47.

Is it something that a man can carry? One man can carry?

Yes, one person can carry it alone.

Mr Witness, is it an LAR or an SLR?

LAR. LAR.

Some kind of rifle, is it?

Yes, gun. LAR. LAR. They used the same bullets used by a G3. It uses the same bullets like G3.

Thank you. Sir, during this attack on Kabala was there any communication that you know of between the forces that were doing the attack and anyone else?

Which of the forces are you talking about? I do not understand that question.

Well, you have indicated that the attack - on the attack was Superman and SAJ Musa, correct, and various other RUF and AFRC and STF forces? Is that correct?

Yes.

Did any of these forces that were attacking Kabala communicate with anyone outside of that Kabala area to your knowledge?

Yes.

Please tell us what you know about communications from Kabala.

There was Superman communicating with Skinny - Mosquito - SAJ Musa was communicating with Brigadier Mani in Kurubonla and other communications were also going on at the time.

Thank you. Now, you used the name Skinny. Can you explain who is Skinny?

Sam Bockarie.

Mr Witness, who called Sam Bockarie Skinny?

All his friends used to call him Skinny because of his body.

Sir, after being pushed out of Kabala, what happened to the forces that had attacked? Where did you go?

We went to Koinadugu Town.

The ammunition and arms that were captured, was there any communication regarding those arms and ammunition?

Yes.

Can you please explain that?

Yes, I was in the radio room with Superman, SAJ Musa, when Sam Bockarie called and said that the ammunition and arms that we had captured from Kabala he wanted us to send some to him so that he can send it to the other front lines.

What else was said then?

Repeat the question. I have not understood it.

After Sam Bockarie said that he wanted some of the ammunition sent to him, what happened?

After the communication Superman and SAJ Musa and other commanders called a meeting, and in that meeting they discussed that the distance is too far to send those ammunition to Kailahun District and so they would like to call Sam Bockarie and tell him that they would like to use the ammunition to attack Makeni. [Indiscernible]. After the meeting --

Mr Witness, I am sorry that was my fault. I was speaking over the interpreter I believe at the end of the answer. We got on the transcript "... to attack Makeni" and then the interpreter added something that I didn't get.

Mr Interpreter, can you recall the last part of the answer?

Yes, "That was what was on."

I am not quite sure if that makes sense to me.

"That was what was going on in short."

"After the meeting"? The words - it is before the words, "After the meeting."

Your Honour, I believe the witness then said, "After the meeting." I am sorry, because I started speaking when the interpreter was adding something. I apologise.

Your Honours, he has to be advised to stop mumbling the last bit of his answers. He mumbles them. We hardly get them clearly.

Very well, I will tell him. Mr Witness, the interpreter is having a problem. You are going more slowly now, that is good, but the interpreter tells us that you are speaking slowly and mumbling at the end of your answers. You must keep the same volume throughout your answer, you understand?

Proceed, Mr Koumjian.

Mr Witness, I have the same problem of dropping my voice at the end of a sentence and so I will try not to. Sir, you indicated that there was discussion that the distance was too far to send the ammunition and so they would like to call Sam Bockarie and tell them that they would like to use the ammunition to attack Makeni. What happened then?

After that they went into the radio room and called him. After they had called him, he protested that they should send the ammunition to him. In fact, he was going to send some people to come for the ammunition.

Okay, thank you. Now just clarify for us, so we are absolutely clear, who called who? You used "he" and "them". Who called who in the radio room?

It was Superman that called Sam Bockarie. Superman and SAJ Musa called Sam Bockarie and Sam Bockarie told them that he needed the ammunition. In fact, he will send - he, Sam Bockarie, will send people to come and collect the ammunition.

Thank you. Did Sam Bockarie send anyone to collect the ammunition?

Yes, he sent people.

When did they arrive?

After the communication, I think three weeks later people arrived to Koinadugu Town.

Can you remember then approximately - well, first of all let us make it clear. What year was this that we are talking about?

'98.

And can you remember if it was dry season, or rainy season?

It was during the rainy season. It was raining at the time.

About how long after the time you were pushed out of Kabala did the men arrive?

When they - almost one month when they arrived there.

Okay, thank you very much. And the attack on Kabala, just so we are clear, was that in the dry season or the rainy season?

Early in the rainy season.

Where were you when the men arrived sent by Bockarie?

In Koinadugu Town.

Who were these people that arrived?

They had Liberians among them. The Liberians were in the majority, with some Sierra Leoneans who escorted them.

Sorry to interrupt, Mr Koumjian. The witness said it was raining at the time and was during the rainy season of which year? Have I missed something? '98?

I believe he started saying - he did say that at the beginning before I asked him about the dry season and rainy season. Thank you:

Mr Witness, can you give us an estimate - we understand we are not asking for an exact number. How many men approximately arrived?

Roughly, I think 60 men roughly.

Now, you said some were Liberians. Can you estimate approximately what percentage, or how many of them, were Liberian?

I can't remember the number, but the majority of them were Liberians and a few Sierra Leoneans among them.

Thank you. Was anyone leading this group?

Yes.

Who was that?

One Senegalese. Senegalese.

And who was this person? First, is Senegalese a name or a nickname?

It is a nickname because he was tall.

What was the nationality of this Senegalese?

He was a Liberian man.

What else do you know about him?

I knew him for the first time after we had gone for the ammunition in Kenema. He was the same Senegalese that I met in Kenema.

Your Honours, can he repeat that last bit.

Please repeat the last part of your answer, Mr Witness, for the interpreter. Pick up where you said, "He was the same Senegalese that I met in Kenema."

When we were in Freetown, we were sent to Kenema to go and collect ammunition. The Senegalese that I met with Jungle was the same Senegalese that I met in Koinadugu.

Thank you. Can you remind us, this Senegalese do you know if he was a member of any military force?

Yes, Senegalese he was one of the Special Forces for President Taylor in Liberia.

What happened after this force arrived with the majority Liberian?

They decided to call a forum. Superman and SAJ Musa decided to call a forum for all senior officers, including Senegalese and CO Vincent [sic]. He called them all to a forum.

And who attended the forum?

All the senior commanders attended the forum, including myself. I was there serving as bodyguard to Superman.

What was discussed in the forum?

The first thing was that they welcomed them. Superman told them they were welcome and that he understood that Sam Bockarie sent them to collect arms and ammunition to be carried to Kailahun, but that at present they were unable to turn over the arms and ammunition to them. They said they will call him and tell him that, "We want to use you to work along with us to move forward to Freetown."

Mr Witness, when you said "they said they will call him" please explain who said they will call who?

Superman said that they will call Sam Bockarie.

Thank you very much. Anything else happen at this forum after Superman made these remarks?

Yes. After that SAJ Musa brought up a decision that they should look out for Gullit, they should try and locate Gullit. Gullit.

Can you explain what you mean when you say try to locate Gullit?

Yes. At the time Gullit was in the jungle and nobody knew his whereabouts, so SAJ Musa was trying to say that they should try to locate him so that they could join hands together.

What was the reaction of Superman to this suggestion?

Yes, Superman said it was good for them to form a battalion to send them to go and search for Gullit.

Okay, before we come to talk about that battalion what then was done with the group led by Senegalese after the forum?

Repeat that question. I did not understand.

Let me ask another question. What happened to Senegalese after the forum?

After the forum they told Senegalese to be taking care of the training base because we established a training base in Koinadugu Town, so they told him to head the training base in Koinadugu Town. That was Senegalese.

Thank you. Who, if anyone, was being trained at the base?

Yes, there were a lot of people on the base for training.

What kind of people were being trained at the base?

They had adults, children, females on the base.

Mr Witness, were these people that had volunteered to join your forces?

No.

Who were they?

They were the people that we abducted in Kabala and its surroundings.

Besides Senegalese do you recall the names of any other Liberians who were in the group that came that was led by Senegalese?

Yes.

Who do you recall?

I recall a Liberian man called CO Vincent. We used to call him CO Vensy [phon].

Thank you. Your Honour, our phonetic spelling is a little different than Vincent, it's V-E-N-S-E-N.

Can we just have the witness please spell. If there is any question about names I would like the witness to spell them out.

Mr Witness, do you know how to spell the name Vincent?

No, I don't know how to spell Vensy.

Mr Interpreter, is it Vincent or Vensen?

Your Honours, the witness is saying Vensy, CO Vensy.

Thank you.

For the record then that says Vincent is not correct, it should be Vensy.

I am not sure what he is saying. Is it Vensy, V-E-N-S-Y phonetically, or is it Vensen, V-E-N-S-E-N?

I understand the latter, but it is phonetic and I don't have another document with the spelling of that name.

Mr Koumjian, why don't you spell the name you have.

Just phonetically exactly as the justice has said, V-E-N-S-E-N:

Sir, anyone else among the Liberians that you recall?

I can't recall the names of all of them now.

Thank you very much. These Liberians that were there, were they people that had military training? Could you tell that or not?

I have not heard from the interpreter. I don't know if my mic is not activated. I am not hearing anything.

Mr Interpreter, did your counterpart interpret the question for the witness?

Your Honours, I did not get anything from that side.

I am told the question was interpreted. Madam Court Attendant, could you assist please in checking the --

Perhaps I could just try again and maybe it will come out.

Very well.

Mr Witness, do you know if the Liberians that came with Senegalese were people with military training or experience?

I am just hearing directly from you.

Mr Koumjian, we are having it checked if you wish to sit.

Your Honour, the technicians are checking to see if there is a problem.

Perhaps the Court Officer might check the headset also.

We are informed that they should be able to check this quite quickly. If it looks as though it is going to take longer than quite quickly then we may have to retire.

We are informed that this will take about 10 minutes and therefore we will adjourn briefly for those 10 minutes. If the witness is to be escorted out then it will be necessary to put the blinds down.

Mr Witness, the technicians need to look at this problem more closely so we are going to leave the Court for about 10 minutes. Please adjourn the Court temporarily.

I understand it is rectified now, but Mr Koumjian if you put your question again and Mr Witness please tell us first if you hear the interpretation?

Yes.

Sir, do you know if the Liberian forces that came under Senegalese, came with him, if these were people with any military training or military experience?

Yes.

Who were they?

Most of the Liberians they said they were former NPFL fighters and like CO Vensy was an SSS man. He is presently in the SSS in Liberia.

Thank you. Now a bit earlier, Mr Witness, in talking about the forum, you said that Superman said it would be a good idea to form a battalion to search for Gullit. Was anything done about that suggestion?

Yes.

Tell us what was done.

They tasked each commander to give men to form the battalion.

When you say a battalion, approximately how many men were put together to form this battalion, if you know?

We cannot estimate the men, but when we talk about battalions we are talking about 62, but sometimes it went up to 150 depending on the type of men we had on the ground.

This battalion, was it given a name at this time?

Yes.

What was the name of the battalion?

Red Lion.

Was a commander appointed for the Red Lion battalion?

Yes.

Who was that?

One O-Five from the AFRC.

Do you know his real name?

I can't remember his real name.

You said the various commanders were tasked with providing men. What was the make up - the final make up - of the Red Lion battalion?

SAJ Musa gave his bodyguards, Superman gave some of his bodyguards, Komba Gbundema gave some of his bodyguards and they added those to the Liberians that came from Kailahun to form the battalion.

Thank you. Besides those that you mentioned, were there any other forces inside this Red Lion battalion besides the bodyguards and the Liberians that had come with Senegalese?

Yes, they had the SLA fighters and some other RUF fighters.

Thank you. What about Senegalese, was he part of the battalion or not?

He was not part of the battalion.

What then happened to the - what orders did the Red Lion battalion receive, to your knowledge?

They told them to go and search for Gullit, where he was, and for them to join him, and when they get there they gave them a code. They should call back and wait for instruction; that instructions would further be given to them.

What happened then?

When they went, they were successful. They got there safely and they called back to the base. They called Superman and SAJ Musa.

Now, at that time where were Superman and SAJ Musa?

In Koinadugu Town.

Was there any communication about the Red Lion battalion finding Gullit between the forces in Koinadugu Town and anyone else?

Yes, there was communication between them.

Explain to us what you know about communications from Koinadugu Town after the Red Lion battalion joined Gullit?

When they got there they called and it was one Alfred Brown that called, CO Alfred. He was the radio man operator for Gullit at that time. He was a former Liberian fighter, Alfred. He was the one that called. He said, "Oh, we have received our brothers here. Our brothers have reached us here and we are happy to receive them." So they called Superman and Superman also called Kailahun that, "The men who had been sent to go and look for Gullit have arrived safely and that I have just received communication from CO Alfred", and CO Alfred was the communications man for the RUF at that time. So, when they got there they called - CO Alfred called. Everybody was happy.

Just to be absolutely clear, CO Alfred was he an SLA?

It was not CO Isaac. It was Alfred. He was not an SLA. He was a former NPFL fighter and later he came to the RUF. He was one of the radio communications man for the RUF. He was a Liberian. He was not an SLA soldier.

Thank you. You also said that "Superman also called Kailahun." When you say "Superman called Kailahun", explain what you mean?

He called Sam Bockarie's station, Vision 1, Sam Bockarie's radio station. He called there and he spoke with Sam Bockarie directly.

Thank you very much. Now, Mr Witness, those - you talked about the Liberians that came with Senegalese and some of them went to the Red Lion battalion. What happened to the rest of the people that came with Senegalese?

Few - just few remained with Superman and the rest of them went along with the Red Lion battalion. A few of them remained with Superman in Koinadugu Town.

You also told us that bodyguards of Superman and Komba Gbundema joined the Red Lion battalion. What was the nationality of these bodyguards?

Even before the arrival of the Liberians Superman already had some Liberian bodyguards with him, so most of them were Liberians and some were Sierra Leoneans.

Okay, thank you. Do you know what the group that the Liberians joined, the Gullit group, where they were when the Red Lion battalion found them?

I think it was around - I don't know the name of the area again, but we used to call there Eagle Base. I don't know the actual place, but it was in Tonkolili District. I think maybe Tonkolili District or Bombali District at that time.

Thank you. Did that group remain in that location, Gullit's group, or did it go anywhere else?

Yes.

Mr Koumjian, he is not even sure - the witness is not even sure what district it was - and now you have asked him did they remain there. I got the impression from his last answer that he was just guessing. He said, "I think it was around. I don't know the name of the area, maybe Bombali District", and so I don't think it is very helpful for you to say did they remain in that area when he didn't know the area they were in anyway.

Perhaps the witness knows where they went next. That is what I am trying to elicit. I will try again, your Honour, to make it more - rephrase my question:

Sir, Mr Witness --

[Indiscernible].

Your Honours, that was not clear. Counsel was speaking over the witness and so it was not clear to the interpreter.

Could you repeat what you just said, please. The interpreter did not hear it.

They were based in Bombali District between Kabala and Makeni. They were based along that axis, Bombali District.

Mr Witness, you have told us you are not sure exactly where that was, but do you know where they went?

Yes, from there when they started attacking we used to listen to them. They used to call when they were moving ahead.

Where did they go, if you know?

They attacked Lunsar, Waterloo, Freetown.

Explain to us how you know about these movements of Gullit's group?

For everywhere they reached when they started fighting we would hear from over the BBC, because they used to call us. Major CY was there as the bodyguard commander to Superman. He used to call Superman and inform him directly.

Mr Witness, you've talked about Gullit's group attacking and you named three places; Lunsar, Waterloo, Freetown. During these attacks, let's start with Lunsar, what was the group that you were with doing?

I was with Superman's group.

And what did Superman's group do while Gullit's group was attacking Lunsar?

At that time we launched an attack on Kabala for the second time.

Was that attack successful?

No.

You've talked about Gullit attacking Lunsar. Do you know what forces, if any, were defending Lunsar?

Yes.

Who were the forces defending Lunsar?

The Nigerian ECOMOG and the Gbethis, the Kamajors.

We will get a spelling for Gbethis, your Honour:

Who are the Gbethis?

They were the same as Kamajors, but in Temne they call them Gbethis and in Mende they call them Kamajors. They were the same CDF, but in Temne they call them Gbethis and in Mende they call them Kamajors.

The spelling is G-B-E-T-H-I-S.

When Superman, you said after he attacked Lunsar - excuse me, Gullit. Do you know if Gullit's forces were successful in taking Lunsar?

Yes, they were successful.

And then you indicated that they attacked Waterloo. Where was the force you were with when Gullit's forces were attacking Waterloo?

At that time we were moving towards Makeni.

Were your forces facing any fighting at that time, the time that Gullit's forces were around Waterloo?

Yes.

Who were you fighting against?

At first we fought amongst ourselves. That was an infighting in Koinadugu and later we started attacking Alikalia. We attacked Alikalia going towards Bumbuna to Makeni.

Thank you. Let's first deal with the fights among yourselves. Can you explain the circumstances that led to this internal fighting?

Yes.

Please tell us what happened that led to the internal fighting.

That was the time Senegalese was appointed at the training commandant and when he went to the training base he beat up one of the recruits until he killed him. So SAJ Musa said they should court-martial him and Superman said, no, he did not have any control over Senegalese. He was one of the Special Forces. He said we would have to inform Sam Bockarie. And SAJ Musa said he will not take orders - SAJ Musa said he will not take orders from Sam Bockarie and that he was going to court-martial Senegalese. So Superman said he will not agree to that. So the infighting started. That was the time the infighting started.

Thank you. When you say "infighting", are you talking about arguing with words or fire fights?

We fought with guns. Infighting.

Who was fighting against who?

RUF, STF versus AFRC and former SLA soldiers.

The AFRC in this internal fighting were led by who?

SAJ Musa.

And the RUF in this internal fighting were led by who?

Superman.

Now, you have also mentioned the STF. Who was leading the STF?

General Bropleh.

Which side was the STF on in this infighting?

On RUF side.

Were all of the SLAs together with SAJ Musa?

No.

Who was not with SAJ Musa?

Brigadier Mani, Colonel T, Rambo Red Goat, they were not with SAJ Musa.

Who were they with?

They were with Superman.

You've previously told us who Brigadier Mani and Colonel T are. Who was Rambo Red Goat?

Your Honours, can learned counsel please repeat the question.

Mr Witness, who was Rambo Red Goat?

He was one of the senior officials from the AFRC.

Which side was Rambo Red Goat on during the infighting?

At the time the firing was going on he was on SAJ Musa's side.

Where did this fighting take place?

Koinadugu Town.

Then what happened?

After the fighting, I think civilians went and informed ECOMOG in Kabala that infighting was going on in Koinadugu Town. So ECOMOG and the Gbethis and the Kapra - ECOMOG and the Kapras decided to come and attack us in Koinadugu at that time, but before that SAJ Musa has jumped into the bush with his forces. So when ECOMOG attacked us we repelled the attack and he came and told us that we will not be able to sit here again because ECOMOG already knew about us, so we decided to retreat and go to Pumpkin Ground. So we went to Yira Filaia. We burnt down the town. We burnt Koinadugu Town.

Thank you. If you could slow up a little bit, Mr Witness. We need to go over a few things. You said ECOMOG and who decided to attack you in Koinadugu during the infighting?

The Kapras.

Who are the Kapras?

They were part of the CDF, but they called them in - I don't know how they called this tribe. In their own tribe, in the Kabala district, they called them the Kapras. In the Koranko they called them Kapras. They were part of the Kamajors, the CDF forces.

Thank you. Now, then you said --

Is that correctly spelt in the transcript?

I will check that, your Honour. I am not familiar with the word, but we will check it:

Sir, you said that, "So when ECOMOG attacked us we repelled the attack and he came and told us we will not be able to sit here." Who said that?

Superman told us that we will not be able to sit here again. Superman.

When SAJ Musa, you said, took his forces out of Koinadugu, what happened to Rambo Red Goat?

Rambo Red Goat surrendered to us and he said we are all brothers.

What happened after he was surrendered? How did you receive him?

We received him nicely. We just laughed at him because he was talking funny, funny things and everybody was just laughing. We received him fine.

Now, you said you went to Pumpkin Ground. Can you explain what that is?

Yes.

What is Pumpkin Ground?

When we got to the town we did not meet anybody there. We only met pumpkins in all the rooms in all under the beds, so we referred to the place as Town Pumpkin Ground, Town Pumpkin Ground.

Do you know the real name of this place?

Yes.

Can you tell us please?

Yira Filaia.

Your Honours, could the witness say that again.

Mr Witness, please repeat the name for the interpreter.

Yira Filaia.

Your Honours, the spelling, if it isn't spelt already, Y-I-R-A and the second word F-I-L-A-I-A:

Because it is easier for me to pronounce I will call this Pumpkin Ground. What happened after you went to Pumpkin Ground?

We based in Pumpkin Ground and Superman said we should start running missions to attack the ECOMOG forces.

Did you attack any ECOMOG forces at this time?

Yes, we attacked ECOMOG forces.

Where did you attack the ECOMOG forces?

We attacked Alikalia, [indiscernible].

In this attack were any weapons or ammunition captured?

Yes, we captured a lot of arms and ammunition there.

Sir, I want to go back to one thing you said when discussing the infighting. You said that when Superman said you should leave he gave some orders about what you should do in Koinadugu, is that correct?

Yes.

What in fact happened to Koinadugu after the infighting?

Superman told us to burn the town down.

Was any part of the town burnt?

We burnt the whole town.

Were there any civilians in Koinadugu at that time?

Yes.

What happened to those that were in Koinadugu at that time?

We started setting fire on the houses. Some of them left, they went into the bushes, and some stayed in the houses and got burnt.

After the attack on Alikalia where did you go next?

We started moving towards Makeni.

Mr Witness, do you recall approximately when this was that you started moving towards Makeni?

Yes.

Tell us approximately when this was?

I think it was December '98. December.

On your way to Makeni, were any other places attacked?

Yes, they attacked us, but we did not attack any places. They attacked us for the first time and the second time we attacked.

Okay, who attacked you?

We were attacked by the ECOMOG forces.

Do you know where these ECOMOG forces that attacked you were based?

Yes, they were based in Bumbuna Town.

What was the contingent of ECOMOG, if you know, that attacked you?

The Nigerian forces.

And what happened after you were attacked in Bumbuna?

Your Honour, can learned counsel kindly be asked to repeat the question.

After the attack --

I will repeat the question, please, Mr Witness. My question is what happened after the attack - you were attacked in Bumbuna?

The attack did not take place in Bumbuna. The attack was around Bumbuna. Around Bumbuna. The forces were based in Bumbuna and the attack was around Bumbuna.

Thank you for that correction. What happened after the attack by the forces that had been based in Bumbuna?

We were not based in Bumbuna. The attack was around Bumbuna and we were going towards Bumbuna, but we did not enter Bumbuna. The forces attacked us around Bumbuna and the forces were based around Bumbuna, so it was the jet bomber that came over and attacked us. The jet even gave me some problem around my thigh at that time.

At the time the forces you were with were moving towards Makeni, do you know of any movements of other forces around Sierra Leone?

Yes.

First, let me ask you how do you know about other forces moving around Sierra Leone?

We had regular communications between us.

Do you know about any other movement of RUF forces around this time as you were moving towards Makeni?

Yes.

Please explain to us what you remember about that?

After we had taken Alikalia it was at the same time that Issa Sesay and his group, Rambo, took over control of Kono, Koidu Town. They were moving towards Magburaka whilst we were moving towards Binkolo. We were having regular communication between us at the time.

As your forces were moving towards Makeni, do you know where Issa Sesay's forces were?

Yes.

Where were they?

At the time they attacked us around Bumbuna, they were in - around Magburaka.

Do you know if Magburaka was defended by any forces?

Yes.

Who was defending Magburaka?

The ECOMOG contingent, Nigerian troops.

Was there a battle there in Magburaka?

Yes.

And do you know what the result was?

RUF succeeded. It was successful.

Mr Koumjian, I am just wondering where was this witness throughout all this that he is able to give this evidence? Surely, he was not everywhere. If you could have some foundation, I would like to know.

Sir, you talked about hearing radio communications, but where were you when you heard - with which forces were you when you heard these communications?

I was with Superman's group.

That was in Koinadugu?

At the time that the attack on Magburaka took place, where was Superman's group at that time?

We were in Binkolo. We attacked Binkolo. Binkolo, the road leading from Makeni to Kabala on the main road.

Just so we are clear, in which direction were you going? Towards Makeni, or away from Makeni?

We were going towards Makeni because it is very close to Makeni, up to four or five miles.

What happened in Binkolo?

We entered Binkolo and we captured some priests in Binkolo. We captured some priests from the Catholic mission.

And what was done with the priests that were captured?

We took them to Superman. At the time I was resting because I was encountering some problems. I didn't know what next they did to them.

Okay, thank you very much. Now, you talked about --

Just before you leave that, Mr Koumjian, I am curious to know what type of problems this witness encountered.

I just don't want to be too specific. I could do it perhaps in private session.

I see. It will go to his identity, will it?

Perhaps.

Well could we, before we abandon this point completely, find out whether or not it does go to his identity? At the moment, it could be any kind of problem.

Well the reason I ask is it seems that whatever problems they were were serious enough to prevent him finding out the fate of these Catholic priests, so seeing he is so well informed on every other instance of these attacks I am just wondering what degree of problems he is talking about.

Your Honour, can I say that from the papers that have been disclosed to us on the face of it the problems that appear on the papers do not go to his identity.

Your Honour, I can do this as your Honours wish, in open or closed session. Our general position is that, while a particular piece of information may not identify the witness, a combination of pieces of information could identify the witness to those knowledgeable. So, I am at your discretion. I could either do a couple of questions in private session, or I can ask him openly.

Well, look, I don't know what he is going to say, Mr Koumjian, whereas you do, and so if you say it could betray his identity perhaps it might be something we can deal with later on.

Okay, let me try to go around it while answering your Honour's concern about his basis of knowledge:

Mr Witness, you have told us that you don't know about the priests. During a period of time were you no longer among the fighting men?

No.

Where --

When you say "No" do you mean no you were no longer among the fighting men, or no that is not correct?

I was no longer among the fighting men at the time.

And can you tell us where you were, the place?

I was behind them. I was always behind them, the back team.

And during this period of time were you listening to the radio, or for some reason unable to listen to the radio?

When we were at the back we were the ones who had the radio, so we had access to radio. We were listening to radio, our local radio, BBC and other radio stations.

Is that how the witness knew the movements of these other groups, through commercial radio?

I believe he previously indicated both internal and commercial, but I can ask him.

But in his recent answer all the radios he has named are commercial radios.

I will clarify.

Radio communications. The RUF radio communication.

Mr Witness, when you talk about what you know about where other groups were at the time you were somewhere else, can you - you said it was from radio. Can you explain what you mean? How did you learn where other RUF forces were and AFRC forces through the radio?

Yes, normally when RUF is moving they can't take the radio at the forefront because of security reasons. The radio would always be at the back. Where the radio was it was the same area that they took me, so whenever communication was going on I would be with the radio communication so that I can listen and I knew about the movement about the other groups.

Your Honour, I believe actually in reconsidering it I can deal with it openly because something has already been stated:

You said earlier you had a problem with your thigh. Is that related to what you are talking about now as far as your movements?

Yes.

When you had this problem, what happened to you? Just where did you go?

The problem when I said I had a problem on my thigh, I was having an injury on my thigh. That did not stop me from going behind the enemy - the forces. I was not at the forefront, but I was behind them. We were moving because we hadn't a base at the time.

Mr Witness, you talked about SAJ Musa leaving Koinadugu with his forces. Do you know where he went?

Yes.

Where did he go?

When they were sitting down, the radio - when the radio man for the RUF at the time sent to Superman saying that they wanted to talk to him on the radio, so when Superman got into the radio room later when he returned he said he has just spoken with SAJ, SAJ Musa, and he told me that he hadn't any problems with me. We should join hands together. He had joined Gullit's group and that they were moving to Freetown, but I hadn't any problem with us and so he too spoke with him. So, I told him that I hadn't any problem with him and so Superman told me that. He said SAJ Musa called him and talked to him over the radio.

If I understand you you said, "He had joined Gullit's group." Just to be clear, who had joined Gullit's group?

SAJ Musa.

And when you say SAJ Musa, does that include the forces, or just SAJ Musa himself, or the forces he commanded also?

SAJ Musa and the forces he was commanding.

After SAJ Musa joined, Gullit, do you know if there was any communication with Gullit?

Yes, there was communication with Gullit.

Communication between Gullit and who?

Gullit and Superman.

How do you know about that?

As I told you, I was always with the radio man. At the time I was having this problem I was always in the radio room. When Superman goes to the radio room I was always with him in the radio room.

Thank you. Now, you had mentioned this Red Lion battalion. Was there any communication with the Red Lion battalion to your knowledge?

Yes.

Who was communicating from the Red Lion battalion?

Superman's bodyguard, Major CY.

When you say he was Superman's bodyguard, when was he Superman's bodyguard?

I think from the starting of the revolution until the time that they dispatched them as Red Lion battalion he was bodyguard to Superman. He went to represent Superman at the time.

So was CY a member of the Red Lion battalion or not?

Yes, he was a member of the Red Lion battalion.

Do you recall what Major CY said to Superman during these communications? Do you recall any of that?

Sometimes he used to tell Superman because the communication - everybody used to listen to it. It was like a telephone. Sometimes he used to tell Superman that things are fine and that they were putting things together to move to Freetown, but sometimes they had some communication problem. It was not every time that he had access to radio to talk to Superman.

When you say sometimes they indicated there were some problems, can you explain what you mean?

Yes. When SAJ Musa got there he told them - I think only the radio people used to talk over the radio. It's not everybody talking on the radio with his own idea, so they didn't have the free time to talk over the radio.

Okay, Mr Witness. I am not sure about others, but I didn't understand your answer so can you just give it again a little bit more slowly. What were some of the problems that you talked about? Can you explain again.

Yes, when SAJ Musa got there he put a strong rule, according to them, because I was not there. He told them that whoever wanted to communicate with any other station should pass - should go through a procedure before communicating with anyone. So CY passed the message over to Superman and Superman was telling us that he hasn't got any direct line any more with CY at the time.

Now, what happened to SAJ Musa to your knowledge?

From there when we were moving towards Freetown I understood that he was killed in Benguema barracks.

Do you recall where you were when you first heard that SAJ Musa was killed?

Yes.

Where were you?

At the time I was strong now, I was in Lunsar. We were moving towards Lunsar.

Where was Superman?

Your Honours, can he repeat that answer.

Mr Witness, the interpreter needs you to repeat your answer. The question was "Where was Superman?" Please repeat your answer.

Makeni.

What do you remember - how did you learn that Superman had died?

We started on SAJ Musa and we are now moving on to Superman's death. It may just be a slip, I make them all the time, but I wasn't sure if it was a slip.

I think it was ten points for the Defence on that one. Yes, it was my fault:

Sir, where were you when you heard that SAJ Musa had been killed?

I said earlier we were in Lunsar. Lunsar.

But where were you? Were you in a radio room, were you in a hotel, did someone tell you? How did you learn about SAJ Musa dying?

Is that not two questions in one, or are you trying to link into something?

Let me try it again:

When I ask where were you, describe as best you can the circumstances of how you learned that SAJ Musa had died?

When we moved to Lunsar we moved with the advance team with Komba Gbundema --

Your Honour, can the witness repeat and slowly.

Mr Witness, you are going fast. Repeat your answer, speaking more slowly. Start where you said, "We moved with the advance team with Komba Gbundema." Pick up from there.

We moved with the advance team. Komba Gbundema was the commander when we got to Lunsar. The following day Superman joined us in Lunsar and told us that the people in front of us have encountered problem. We understood that SAJ Musa was dead. We understand that SAJ Musa is dead, so we should try and get to them.

What was the reaction of the people you were with when you learned that SAJ Musa was dead?

Some of the SLAs that were with us, they felt bad, and some of the RUF were happy because they said SAJ Musa was ambitious for power, like my commander Superman and other commanders. Komba Gbundema even said it openly.

Mr Witness, you are running again. Slow down, please.

So, sir, did you learn who, if anyone, took SAJ Musa's place?

Yes. What? Yes.

Who did you learn had taken SAJ Musa's place?

Bazzy.

Where was Gullit at this time?

Gullit was there with them. He was there with them at the time.

To your knowledge, what was the relationship between Gullit and Superman?

They had a good - they had a good working - they had a good job because during the death of SAJ Musa Gullit started communicating with Superman because he said SAJ Musa was the cause for the poor communication between them.

When you say "during the death of SAJ Musa Gullit started communicating" do you mean before or after SAJ Musa died?

After the death of SAJ Musa.

What is the meaning of "they had a good job", Mr Interpreter?

That is what he said.

I am talking about good relationship, good relationship.

Where did you go then? You said Superman joined you and then where did you go?

We attacked Gberi Junction.

Mr Witness, at one point you had said that Superman was in Makeni, is that correct?

Yes, Superman was in Makeni, yes. For the first time when we attacked Makeni we left him there and we went with the advance team to Lunsar and he met us in Lunsar.

Okay, this attack on Makeni, do you remember what month it was?

The attack on Makeni? I do not understand the question.

Do you remember which month and year the attack on Makeni took place?

Yes, December.

What year?

'98.